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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| pietillidie wrote: | Pied Piper, where we seem to part ways on this is that I don't expect anything from Qantas outside the rules of the game they're playing. They're not a national airline anymore, so the quality of their service is a market consideration, not a national scandal.
The problem, of course, is that they're still trading on the reputation of having once been a national airline, while simultaneously trashing that reputation. If so, we have to cut the bastards loose and stop letting them trade off the past, include any advantages they get from favourable or preferential treatment.
The unholy combination of private profit making and public risk taking is a menace. You either privatise something properly, or you run it as a public good. My question is this: what advantages, if any, do Qantas get that other airlines operating in the free market don't get? (Did someone above mention protected routes?). |
They are exactly the issues & exactly right IMO.
1. Qantas is being treated as "our"national airline so it has protected routes.
2. It can't compete against the mostly Asian & Mid East Airlines who are subsidized by their respective Governments & whose costs on international routes are vastly lower.
3. Qantas ultimately would prefer the Governement to pick up the losses of the international routes.
4. Qantas makes its dosh locally in Australia & regionally - in our neck of the woods.
5. Time once & for all to dispel the myth & sentiment associating Qantas still calling Australia home.
6. The third world Countries subsidizing their national airlines also means they (The Governments) realize the value of tourism, business & recognition, so economic pain via some airline routes or financial loss is more than compensated by the gains that tourism, business & recognition brings.
7. Once we stopped owning Qantas & privatised it, there is no requirement for Qantas to see a bigger national picture.
8. Qantas would prefer to privatise the gains but socialize the losses - isn't that how the free market works in any case?
9. Safety should be paramount in all of this. To say that there are vested interests by unions in using the safety argument & therefore ought to be dismissed suggests that there are no other vested interests in any other issues related to the whole drama. Given there are vested interests right through the airline issue which issues ought to be examined & which ought not be? To dismiss things out of hand like this is far too ideological IMO.
10. What we need is to try & compare apples with apples. The safety record by Qantas has justifiably taken a big perceptual hit in the last few years.
11. Jetstar staff (the overseas ones) are working onorous shifts. Airlines should not be determining what are safe working condtions for their employees. This should be independently vetted & arbitrated.
12. While it might be considered by some to be worlds best practice, the exploitation of overseas staff should not be the yardstick for OH&S for crew, maintenance, flight attendants etc. The same argument also needs to be applied to which aircraft are being used, which are safe etc. This knowledge should be at the forefront for each of us to make decsions about safety.
13. Qantas management have made the industrial action seem a lot bigger than it is. At the same time, the shareholders of Qantas (how many votes are maintained by the block industry investors) voted to allow Joyce to make obcene amounts while cutting the jobs & conditions of his employees.
14. Gillard has been diginified & at her best in these trickey times. She has not taken sides & has referred the issue to the Fair Work Commission.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:41 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Black_White
Joined: 19 Mar 2001
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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Qantas would say that, wouldn't they?
The wrong date indeed. That rates as good as :
"I left it in the wash sir"
"My dog ate it"
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/qantas-set-to-return-to-the-skies/story-e6frf7jo-1226180911020
Fair Work has terminated the industrial action (from both parties) and ordered them back to work.
21 days to sort out the pay claim, with a further 12 if needed provided progress has been made.
Win Win. No more industrial action, the planes will be back in the air.
It'll be interesting to see what happens with the pay claim. Will each side hold the course they've taken so far? If so, no chance of a conciliated outcome. Someone (or both) will have to bend to get a result.
If not, I think FWA can only arbitrate on a pay outcome if both parties agree. That'll be interesting as well.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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A different slant on the negotiations.
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/union-militancy-just-doesnt-fly-20111030-1mqdl.html
| Quote: | The pilots' association wants Qantas pay and conditions to apply on all flights with subsidiary airlines. Jetstar would be less competitive and its current agreements would be overruled.
The engineers' union wants to protect jobs by refusing to entertain work changes that accommodate procedures for new generation aircraft.
The Transport Workers Union, which covers baggage handlers, ground staff, catering and freight employees, is trying to limit, if not prevent, the use of contractors and labour-hire employees to meet peaks and troughs in operational demands.
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So it's not just about salaries but restrictive work practices.
I can completely understand why Qantas would want to keep Jetstar conditions separate, If Pilot conditions seep over to Jetstar other Quantas conditions would quickly follow the precedent and there goes Jetstar.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Member 7167 
"What Good Fortune For Governments That The People Do Not Think" - Adolf Hitler.
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Location: The Collibran Hideout
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It is obvious that Qantas made the decision to close down so that Fair Work would be forced into ordering the unions back to work for the next 21 days. Qantas chose this path as it was preferential to death by a thousand cuts which was what was being applied by the unions. Like it or not, it is called brinkmanship.
When considering the fact that the international section of Qantas is running at a loss of $200 million PA they need to do something. This loss is being covered by profit made in the domestic market. This cannot go on forever. If they put fares up further they will lose considerable market share both internationally and domestically. The option is to either close down the international routes or to to reduce their operation loss by other means.
I also felt it magnanimous of the engineers a couple of weeks ago in offering to assist the airline in getting the 7 grounded aircraft back into the air and only demand 4 times their hourly rate to do so.
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Now Retired - Every Day Is A Saturday |
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sq3
Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Location: Gold Coast/Tampa
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My last QANTAS flight was 5 years ago - our company changed to Virgin for domestic and internationl at the time and we have never looked back.
Much better service, better prices and better loyalty program.
I do think QANTAS will be downsized or totally JetStar run in the very near future.
One of their most profitable (if not the most) was the LA business class route when they were protected - now Virgin is on that route every day.
Both sides are to blame - QANTAS and TWU.
_________________
Coaches give you direction but skills win you matches. |
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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The real loser from this Lock-out is QANTAS.
Thousands have had travel disrupted, the Tourist industry is losing millions, the brand is once again trashed, ppl are ditching the airline in droves and whom is to blame?
QANTAS!
Well done Q.Well done Joyce.
You really earned that huge bonus! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | A different slant on the negotiations.
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/union-militancy-just-doesnt-fly-20111030-1mqdl.html
| Quote: | The pilots' association wants Qantas pay and conditions to apply on all flights with subsidiary airlines. Jetstar would be less competitive and its current agreements would be overruled.
The engineers' union wants to protect jobs by refusing to entertain work changes that accommodate procedures for new generation aircraft.
The Transport Workers Union, which covers baggage handlers, ground staff, catering and freight employees, is trying to limit, if not prevent, the use of contractors and labour-hire employees to meet peaks and troughs in operational demands.
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So it's not just about salaries but restrictive work practices.
I can completely understand why Qantas would want to keep Jetstar conditions separate, If Pilot conditions seep over to Jetstar other Quantas conditions would quickly follow the precedent and there goes Jetstar. |
Wit all due respect Stui, you've selected a bloke from the Insitute of Public Affairs, a Think Tank that makes Peter Reith look like a Social Welfare worker. He is also the former head of an organization appointed under Howard whose sole role (in terms of real politik) was to destroy the building unions.
The Age has printed a lot of widespread opinions & articles today regarding the militant action taken by Joyce - the one you've "linked" is by far is the most extreme interpretation.
I think your earlier post got it in one.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| 3.14159...etc wrote: | | The real loser from this Lock-out is QANTAS. |
Disagree. In hindsight it would seem a very smart tactic. They only needed to do the lockout for how long? 48 hours? And the government intervened to stop them and in the same motion stopped the unions running industrial action. I'd say they got exactly what they wanted.
| 3.14159...etc wrote: |
Well done Q.Well done Joyce.
You really earned that huge bonus! |
You might be right, looks like he did deserve it after all.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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A wag in todays Age letter section noted wryly that Joyce must have close conncetions with Baillieu & Ryan! (for those following Victorian State politics).
Someone else noted: What's the difference between the Melbourne Cup & Qantas? Both cause the country to stand still!
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | A different slant on the negotiations.
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/union-militancy-just-doesnt-fly-20111030-1mqdl.html
| Quote: | The pilots' association wants Qantas pay and conditions to apply on all flights with subsidiary airlines. Jetstar would be less competitive and its current agreements would be overruled.
The engineers' union wants to protect jobs by refusing to entertain work changes that accommodate procedures for new generation aircraft.
The Transport Workers Union, which covers baggage handlers, ground staff, catering and freight employees, is trying to limit, if not prevent, the use of contractors and labour-hire employees to meet peaks and troughs in operational demands.
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So it's not just about salaries but restrictive work practices.
I can completely understand why Qantas would want to keep Jetstar conditions separate, If Pilot conditions seep over to Jetstar other Quantas conditions would quickly follow the precedent and there goes Jetstar. |
Wit all due respect Stui, you've selected a bloke from the Insitute of Public Affairs, a Think Tank that makes Peter Reith look like a Social Welfare worker. He is also the former head of an organization appointed under Howard whose sole role (in terms of real politik) was to destroy the building unions.
The Age has printed a lot of widespread opinions & articles today regarding the militant action taken by Joyce - the one you've "linked" is by far is the most extreme interpretation.
I think your earlier post got it in one. |
Not arguing any of that, I did say it was a different slant on things. Most of the others are all rehashing the same stuff, read one you've read them all.
Here is another one though that takes a different tack. Some of the detail and it's quite enlightening.
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/spirit-of-australia-is-faltering-20111030-1mqgv.html
| Quote: | | At the very pointy end of those huge Qantas flagships, the Airbus A380s, the senior captain has a lot of training, experience and responsibility. He is also earning a lot of money - up to just under $540,000 a year |
Not bad coin.
| Quote: | Another big problem for Qantas is its main competitor, Virgin. A myth has developed that Virgin is a low-cost carrier and less unionised. Not true. It is just as unionised, but has more flexible workplace practices. The real gap between the carriers is international services, where Qantas is vastly bigger and has heavier costs.
Virgin's domestic pilots are paid only 4 per cent less than Qantas pilots. Its ground staff are paid only $1 an hour less than Qantas staff. Virgin has made job-security agreements Qantas is refusing to grant its workers. Virgin even pays its engineers more than Qantas does. It is committed to building a heavy maintenance centre in Australia. It has been around for only 11 years and is very much an underdog.
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Interesting again.
I'd love to be able to look at a detailed breakdown of Quantas labour costs and see how much of it is allowances and penalties caused by inefficient work practices.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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Do you mean these work practices Stui?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaXvFT_UyI8
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Thanks for the link, I will check it out later. |
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Magpie Jack
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Location: Bribie Island, on the Collingwood Coast
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I still can't see why Qantas had to shut down without notice.
They needed to shut down and hurt the national economy to make sure the Fair Work hearing would rule to end the actions of both parties. They could have got exactly the same result by giving 72 hours warning of the lock out. They could still have had their lock out, got their ruling from the Fair Work hearing and wouldn't have stranded thousands of people around the world.
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Bob Rose....the measuring stick of humanity |
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