Value of a Ruckman??

[MarkT]

It is a HUGE issue.

It is impossible to understate the enormity of the issue. The lack of a ruckman has cost us 1 premiership and counting. You can't a bigger issue than that. We play to win premierships and the fact we have won so few since '58 is the only legitimate clam anyone has to superiority over us in any regard whatsoever. Our premiership drought was should destroying.

We have the list to go all the way this year and we will most likely be let down in the ruck again. Full credit to Stunner for his fantastic efforts last year. Particularly against Primus in the final. He nullified Primus and that was central to us winning the game. That is not enough however. We cannot punish sides with our damaging midfield and our potent forward line like we should because we have to struggle to shark opposition taps or attack from defense when we can't. A quick decisive movement from the bounce would do wonders for our attacking potency and would make one of the best defenses unbeatable.

We lost the 2002 GF in ruck. That is a crying shame because the deficiency was obvious in the post 2001 season. If the same happens again it will be a travesty and no one will be to blame except ourselves. IMO our match committee have erred and erred badly.

[Donny]

It's been said more than once what MarkT said in the previous post about not having a ruckman costing us a premiership.

During last season, I heard Gerard Healy quoting a very low figure (16 or 18%) being the ammount of ruck hit outs that find a team-mate.

If this is the case then it's hardly even an issue. As long as our man makes sure the other ruckman doesn't get a clean grab and kick (or handball), what's it matter?

Surely the real issue is how our players react after the ruck scuffle. That's where the ball is won or not, well at least 80% of the time if Healy's stats are correct.

Does someone have the relevant stats?



Donny.

THE BOYS ARE BACK IN TOWN !!!!

[angel]

Josh is starting to look very uncoordinated at times.

Pies light up my world. Davis was the next big thing but now it will be Didak or Cole. Go Pies!

[JLC]

Give the guy a break its only pre season. Some of you guys should barrack for Richmond as they love turning on their own and they "Eat'em alive"

You don't lose ability you only lose confidence

So some of you should state whether you think Fraser has the ability and then stick by that judgement and then we can see how close you are by seasons end.

My call is that Fraser will be firing by year end

jlc


Its not arrogance if you can back it up

Fate is what you are given, Destiny is what you do with it

Essendon 2000 premiers
2001 runners up
2002 fifth
2003 ????
The slide continues

[MarkT]

Magfan8,
that stat is probably right. It does not indicate the value of a ruckman though. Consider what the ordinary ruckman do to those stats and then consider what the part timers at boundary/around the ground contests do and add in the players that come over the top to clear the ball into space. The top tap ruckmen are much more effective than the 16 or 18% would suggest.

All you have to do to get a gage is watch some Collingwood games. Firstly the last few minutes of the 1st 3 GF quarters and the goals that Brisbane got. Secondly, take a look at the last Q v Adelaide in Adelaide when they came back. It was ruck dominance and resultant centre clearance. Take a look at the opening minutes of the last Wizza against Hawthorn and then the last Q when Everitt’s dominance was gone from the game. We were beaten by Geelong largely because of ruck dominance. There were plenty of examples just last season but when you get to the GF and you get done badly in the ruck and lose narrowly, how can you possibly not move Heaven and Earth to do something about it?


JLC,
I rate Fraser as a player but not as a ruckman. He will improve as a ruckman but to date he has not shown one indication that he will be a top class ruck. He has not played a single significant game as a ruckman. He is a good follower and a good HFF at present. I think he’ll develop into a good key position player. He would be wasted in the ruck IMO. We should get a ruckman and play Josh elsewhere.

[dimo]

Fraser is like a time bomb, it's only a matter of time when he will explode.One just has to look back at Gadiner from the eagles to see now he turned into a gun.

He just needs our support not bagging...

GO PIES>>

[chalky]

MarkT, We've had these discussions ad nauseum, especially at FTO. MM had the pick of any number of ruckman in the last draft, yet he chose to strengthen the midfield instead! As mentioned before by many other posters, MM sees a potent midfield and all the advantages this brings to general play, as the number 1 team priority, NOT a tap ruckman - centre bounces and some throw ins. For example,I couldn't believe how many times Walls the wanker creamed himself over Spiders so called "complete dominance in the ruck" and "ruck superiority is the key to winning football games" yet he couldn't/didn't explain how with all that "complete and utter dominance" in the ruck the Dawks were being thumped by 6+ goals. MarkT, nice to have a tapper, sure, did it cost us a GF? NO WAY!
MM doesn't underestimate anything, he is far too well prepared, yet he rates McKee and his work ethic around the ground very highly.
Look,I can see how some would see the fact of drafting a "genuine" ruckman the magic missing piece to winning a premiership and are frustrated by what they percieve to be MM's total lack of awareness of this fact. MESSAGE: This is NOT a fact - trust MM all the way on this issue, he has not failed us.

[MarkT]

chalky,
We had a BOG midfielder and we covered Brisbane benchmark midfield well in the GF. Individual clearances cost Collingwood a premiership. I have no doubt about that at all. I said it on the day when watching the game and it is eveident from the replay. We could strengthen our midfield with a ruckman far more than adding Williams to the mix IMO. I understand why Everitt was passed up but I think it was a mistake not to get a ruckman. French was obviously available.

The reason Everitt's dominance didn't result in Hawthorn winning is that we were, with the two lineups, a significantly better side. I am not saying a ruckman is the difference between greatness and mediocraty but is was the difference between Brisbane and Collingwood and could be again.

Your assertion that MM has not failed us is baseless if you are wrong that we didn't lose the GF in the ruck. I am positive we did. MM has done an outstanding job but he is not infalible and nor are our match committee and recruiting staff. Selection errors were made in the GF and recruiting errors have been made. I am not bagging people but it serves no purpose to assume everything done at Collingwood is perfect. That is simply not possible.

IMO not recruiting a ruckman has cost us 1 premiership and could cost us another.

[stoid]

OK guys, we must admit Stunning did a great job last year, but blaming him for losing the GF is crap. Keep in mind he is only 24, he is 3 years younger than Luke Darcy and he has only come of age over the last couple of years. We must keep in mind that Stunning Steve has only played 63 games and Josh has played 67. Therefore, there is a TON of improvement left in these guys, especially when you consider that it takes ruckmen over 100 games to become really good and consistent. Our two ruckmen’s combined total of games is only just over 100.
Just be patient,the way these guys are developing, I’d say by midyear we will have a very strong ruck division.

Go Pies

[MarkT]

stoid,
I don't know that anyone is blamming stunning or anyone else for that matter. The point is he is a poor tap ruckman - perhaps the worst in the AFL. That is our one weakness. IMO to not correct that is unexplainable.

[stoid]

OK Mark T,
You say you’re not blaming Stunning for losing the GF, but on the contrary, you wrote earlier, and I’ll quote if may “The lack of a ruckman has cost us 1 premiership and counting” and furthermore you wrote “We lost the 2002 GF in ruck.”
Now I don’t know about what anyone else thinks, but Stunning was our ruckman that day, and writing what you did, IMO you’re saying that he lost us the GF.
Yes, I’ll agree that our ruck division is a weakness at the moment, although it’s not our only weakness. You say “our one weakness” is our ruck division, perhaps you’re right, but I beg to differ, as I believe there is more that one weakness in our team. If we are going by last years form, as I’m sure we are then wouldn’t you suggest our forward line is a major problem in the fact that we only managed to score the 9th most For score in the league 2081 points. We need a forward line that can score large totals to take the pressure off the defenders.
Put quite simply there are deficiencies in our team but as a group we can gel together well enough to beat any opponent.

GO PIES!!!!

[AnthonyC]

I won't enter into any discussion about Mckee and the GF, but I would suggest that just because we had the 9th highest aggregate score for the season does not mean that we have a problem with our forward line. In fact I think it can be one of the most potent in the comp. I think there is no doubt that MM gives a little more emphasis to defence. It's more meaningful to look at percentage where we finished 4th. If we win more games than we lose by a healthy margin it doesn't matter. We can have the 16th lowest score and it still wouldn't mean we have a problem with our forward line.



Go Pies!

[Larsperson]

We are probably one of the few teams that can get away with not having a great tap ruckman. The strength of our midfield in close means we clear the ball more often than not even though we rarely win the taps. Im not sure there was a game last year where we even won the taps but it doesnt seem to hurt us. Mckee is still quite young and will continue to improve and we have Rocca and Fraser to help out. Also young guy named Richards coming though so I dont see the ruck position as a problem for us.

[bokka]

Good comments from N Smart on afl.com today.... I notice he gave McKee a good rap...

“I think their overall list has improved: the signings of a couple of key players … (Shane) Wakelin in the back half … and (Anthony) Rocca’s stepped up another gear … their midfield with (Paul) Licuria and Buckley – they form an awesome combination … and Steve McKee is one of the most difficult ruckmen to combat."

that level of respect for Mckee maybe a bit of a surprise esp if you look at what people think of him around here.
I agree with larsperson that rucking will probaly not be a particular weakness this year and in terms of other aspects other than tapwork should be a strength - main thing is to basically nullify the effectiveness when being beaten in the taps, keep them down to the 25%-odd effectiveness.

[Brown26]

It's easy to say that we lost the GF in the ruck - and I'm not disagreeing with you: If we had've won more hit outs, we probably would've won.

If we had've kicked straighter, we probably would've won too. I can suggest two shots late in the third that should've been kicked, but no one calls for their blood.

Is a ruckman more valuable than a full forward who can kick straight?

I think that when you look at our team, it has one weakness, and that is the ruck, at the moment. But you've got to remember that we can't have all the best players in the AFL, French would've been nice, but we didn't have the same sort of trading chips that Carlton had to offer. Everitt would've been nice also, but was probably seen to be too much of a gamble for the price.

It's only natural that you would look the the sides weakest point and say that we are going to struggle for years unless that gap is filled, though this is not necessarily the case. While I think a ruckman is important, from our side you would have to give up A LOT, in terms of trading to get one and salary cap space to pay one, for anyone who is better than stunner. I think we can win a premiership without the best ruckman in the AFL, it'd just be easier to do it with one.