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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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^ What a weak and absurd argument! It costs NOTHING repeat NOTHING to kill an animal quickly and as kindly as circumstances allow. Just because the Javanese Empire is cruel to humans, that is no reason to excuse them being cruel to animals. Just because the Javanese have bred like bloody flies and, not content with overpopulating their own island and making it into a hell on earth, they have invaded and ruined all the other islands in their empire of misery, that is no excuse for wanton cruelty.
Barbaric is barbaric. There is no way to weasel out of that one.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Tannin wrote: | | ^ What a weak and absurd argument! It costs NOTHING repeat NOTHING to kill an animal quickly and as kindly as circumstances allow. |
True, which I guess is why I said:
| pietillidie wrote: | | There are no doubt plenty of simple things that can be done to eliminate that sort of thing. |
A bit of dispassionate education would probably do the trick.
| Tannin wrote: | Just because the Javanese Empire is cruel to humans, that is no reason to excuse them being cruel to animals. Just because the Javanese have bred like bloody flies and, not content with overpopulating their own island and making it into a hell on earth, they have invaded and ruined all the other islands in their empire of misery, that is no excuse for wanton cruelty.
Barbaric is barbaric. There is no way to weasel out of that one. |
I'm not sure the "cruel Asian" and "they breed like flies" discourses pass as sound analysis. It's probably best to take a step back and look at the breadth of the human experience and then decide whether we're dealing with something general or something particular to a group of people.
One day the dominant culture might even issue a parliamentary apology to other Indonesian minorities, but that's likely a way off.
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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"The cruel Asian" my arse. I am talking about the Javanese Empire, the disgracefully cruel regime which started as a collaborationist puppet for te Imperial Japanese, and then continued to pillage, rape, terrify, torture, steal at gunpoint and invade nearby islands, without significant change or letup from that day to this.
"Take a step back" is your usual code for "ignore this because it is not politically convenient to me".
"They breed like flies" ain't "analysis", it's just fact. Javanese have had so many children that the population ghas gone from 3 million in 1800 to 130 million today - and that is despite a massive at-the-barrel-of-a-gun transmigration programme designed to move Javanese out and resettle them on other islands (where the existing people are dispossessed or just shot).
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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It just seems more reasonable to say that given the general human experience, the humane treatment of animals is quite often low on the list of priorities during stages or periods of economic hardship (or in this case early development). Not always, but quite often.
In the same vein, a population boom at that stage of national development is hardly unusual, particularly in the postcolonial period.
Hence I would take a more general approach, particularly as I don't have an intimate knowledge of Indonesia. Meanwhile, of course, we could still alleviate the specific problem of cruelty in slaughter, which as discussed may well be easy enough to do.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| pietillidie wrote: | It just seems more reasonable to say that given the general human experience, the humane treatment of animals is quite often low on the list of priorities during stages or periods of economic hardship (or in this case early development). Not always, but quite often.
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I absolutely get that bit, the "humane" treatment of animals is a comparatively recent thing in western society.
But what I saw on the video, I can only describe as callous. It wasn't just inhumane, it was actually cruel, whether intentionally or otherwise (and I'm thinking it was otherwise).
There was just no need for it. The animals were in the crate ready to be killed. Just do it. multiple stabbings and breaking bones is totally un needed.
I'm in no position to comment whether it's a cultural think or not. In societies when human life is cheap I'm sure there's a level of desensitivity and animals are lower in the chain than people but FFS.
I'm not a cringing animal libber, I used to hunt and enjoed it. I've held a sheep still with my legs and held it's chin up while my dad cut it's throat so we could butcher it. None of that bothers me in the slightest.
That treatment of the cattle was wrong.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Poor people are perfectly capable of humane treatment of other creatures, be those others human or animal. Look at India - here is a country which has absolutely staggering levels of poverty but nevertheless manages to treat animals with great respect.
Making lame excuses for a cruel, uncivilised culture which has demonstrated time and again that it is cruel, dishonest, and utterly ruthless isn't just poor thinking, it is in itself verging on the same evil as that of the culture it defends. This is called "appeasement" and it should never be tolerated by any civilised nation.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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BTW, if I sound a bit over-excited, well, I got a bit excited about Pol Pot and Sadam and Idi Amin's goons and those mad bastards in Bosnia too. We are talking a seriously dysfunctional regime here.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Do you really believe Indonesian (well, Javanese) people are evil, Tannin? And do you think this explains their animal slaughtering practices?
The Indian example is a bit of a red herring because many Indians actually consider animals sacred as part of Hindu tradition - so, that's obviously going to be a mitigating factor.
I haven't seen the videos in question, but however shocking and appalling it seems to us supermarket-trawling Westerners who have never spent a minute thinking about what happens in our own abbattoirs, every method of animal slaughter exists on a sliding scale, and terms like 'humane' are merely relative. I am sure there are reasons for the Indonesian techniques: poor education in methods, lack of correct instruments, general incompetence or even, at worst, gleeful cruelty. But even that behaviour comes about under certain conditions that we in Australia can only begin to imagine. To judge these people as simply 'evil' or 'cruel' is a really simplistic way of looking at things.
I'm not saying that what is happening is okay. It's great that these practices have been exposed, and I sincerely hope that our government will be obliged to actually invest in some infrastructure, or laws, or processes to ensure that this doesn't happen any more. Being our government, of course, it's more likely that they will, say, shut down the abbattoirs depicted in the program and claim that they've solved the problem.
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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The Javanese Empire is indeed evil, David - just as the Imperial Japanese Empire was evil. It is a culture steeped in and largely based on cruelty, greed, and torture. Do you really believe that Changi was a good thing?
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| David wrote: | | I haven't seen the videos in question |
Well STFU until you know what you are talking about!
We are talking serious, wanton brutality here. Just thank god that you don't live there.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Tannin wrote: | | The Javanese Empire is indeed evil, David - just as the Imperial Japanese Empire was evil. It is a culture steeped in and largely based on cruelty, greed, and torture. Do you really believe that Changi was a good thing? |
Well, as you clearly believe in the concepts of cultural superiority, I can at least concede that cultures can have distinguishing traits, and yes, that one culture may be 'crueller' than another. I suppose that is self-evident. The difficulty then is how we define 'culture' and how it applies to the actions of the individual.
We can mount a case that the reason for this treatment of animals is primarily a result of the fact that Indonesians are crueller than Australians (most people would be looking at you a little dubiously at this point, but we'll press on). So what then? Do we completely discount the relevance of other factors, such as poor materials, lack of experience and incompetence in the process of killing an animal? Would this stuff be happening over there if Indonesia had state-of-the-art Australian facilities?
When we're done demonising an entire people, perhaps we can look at workable solutions. The cruel Indonesian people are still going to have to kill animals now and then, being people who eat meat and all, so how can their methods be improved? Well, when they're dealing with Australian animals and Australian companies, perhaps some good old Australian tools and Australian regulations and standards of operation. That might be a good start.
And I do thank god I don't live in Indonesia. Perhaps you should be a little less judgemental towards those who do.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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luvdids 
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Location: work
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| David wrote: |
We can mount a case that the reason for this treatment of animals is primarily a result of the fact that Indonesians are crueller than Australians (most people would be looking at you a little dubiously at this point, but we'll press on). So what then? Do we completely discount the relevance of other factors, such as poor materials, lack of experience and incompetence in the process of killing an animal? Would this stuff be happening over there if Indonesia had state-of-the-art Australian facilities?
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David, whilst I understand the point you're trying to make, I have to agree with Tannin - you should watch the video before you make comments like above - the way these animals were killed had nothing to do with their lack of state of the art facilities, nor did it have anything to do with poor materials or lack of experience. It was just cruelty, no ifs or buts. If you view the footage, the answer to your question above would be 'yes'. Sadly.
FWIW - I didn't watch 4 corners, I saw a quick snippet of what was coming up in the news that night and saw about 3 seconds worth of footage that still disturbs me. I changed channel when that story came up as I couldn't watch any more. I'd be interested in your opinion after you've seen it. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| David wrote: | Would this stuff be happening over there if Indonesia had state-of-the-art Australian facilities?
When we're done demonising an entire people ...... perhaps you should be a little less judgemental towards those who do. |
I alreadsy dealt with this when I said:
| Tannin wrote: | | STFU until you know what you are talking about! |
FFS, find out what the hell is going on over there before you waffle on any more in such complete ignorance.
And, while you are at it, please stop pretending that I said anything about "Indonesian" culture.
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| ubby01 wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | | BTW, if I sound a bit over-excited, well, I got a bit excited about Pol Pot and Sadam and Idi Amin's goons and those mad bastards in Bosnia too. We are talking a seriously dysfunctional regime here. |
Stringing those three together in one sentence makes me clearly understand you have no idea what you're talking about now when it comes to Bosnia. There was no regime as such in that part of the world that you could compare to what happened in Cambodia/Vietnam. Not even Iraq. |
So you support the concept of ethnic cleansing, then? The murder and torture of an entire people is not, in your eyes, cruel?
Grow up.
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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