Are we at deaths road ?

[Harrysz]

Tessa 403....right on!
Ok, who's gonna tell Bucks about the $150,000?

[magpie joffa]

But no one has offered a better way of doing things ?

I dont begrudge any player getting in excess of 350, 400 grand a year, but we got to remember these players love playing football and have done since playing in there junior days, i dont believe money motivates these players, they are just taking advantage of the system in place..i certainly do believe 150 grand a year for the top players is a fair wage...add 10 years at 150 big ones not a bad earning is it ?

Football is dying and like i said earlier its time to get back to basics, sometimes you get the feeling the AFL themselves at times would agree its out of control.

Have we tried to americanise the game too quickly, why is that sponsors are pouring trillions into football but the average working class family can no longer afford to go.

Why are bread and butter supporters excluded from the thrill of watching there club play off in a grand final.

Look i love football and i reckon its great but i really hate any form of dictatorship and the AFL in recent times reek of it.

Does the AFL take any notice of the fans survey in the herald sun each year because at the moment thats all the voice the supporter has in protesting in which our game is headed.

How much money does the AFL commission spend on its self in running the comp ? and is that cost justified ?

And dont give me the crap that running the competition is hard, there is an old saying....you made your bed now sleep in it.

How can we get the competition on a fair par and stop it from becomming bankrupt..because in 2 to 5 years time a few melb clubs will fold or be shipped interstate.

any further suggestions ?


.........................
Much mythologised,frequently misrepresented,collingwood has become a legendary place,from its slums rose a football club that would give its people hope,love and a sense of belonging,the collingwood football club gave its poor a sense of pride, it would quickly grow into the greatest sporting institution in the world...the collingwood football club to it's people is life.
........................

MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS
joffa@magpies.net

[AnthonyC]

Well, are we mad, success hungry, supporters to blame? Maybe I was a bit younger then and didn't notice so much, but the problems that clubs have today didn't seem to be around 20 or so years ago. I remember when Collingwood payed $100,000 for Alan Edwards in about 1979-80. That was an enormous amount in those days and it was headline news. Then remember Raines, Cloke (maybe worthwhile in hindsight ), and Teasdale, Garry Shaw, etc. We demand success and the clubs try to provide it, some at any cost. The competition created a monster and all the corp's want a piece of the action, in advertising their wares. This generates money which everyone wants a piece of, it just feeds itself, getting bigger as time goes on. Don't tell me that some AFL coaches who are trade qualified or unqualified (not knocking them and good luck to them) apart from having football knowledge aren't laughing hard inside earning $500-700K per year (I know it's a 24/7 type of job, and one bad season can cost you a career, but a lot of people have stress in their life). That amount of money is BS, no doubt about it. And then look at the media, people like Sammy Newman have 7 figure incomes.

It is very hard to stop, mainly because no-one wants it to. The talk today is that once the current TV rights are up, the next contract won't be worth as much relatively speaking. Hence a loss of revenue/income, and therefore cuts in spending are needed. I think what people have suggested about reigning in the costs is correct, and it should start today, controlled, before the bubble does burst.

It's all our fault. Make no mistake if people switched off the TV, didn't go to games or buy merchandise, the money paid by the corporates would fall. Trouble is I'd rather cut off my right arm than not go to the footy.


Go Pies!

[Cam]

I guess the scary ramification is that if more people turned off and actually went to the game there would be less money available because of falling TV advertising revenue. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. I know there are national advertising agendas, but if qlders and nswers arent watching because the game is being shown at 2 am.... AFL is going down an ugly funnel. When do the dogs give up? When they are 10 mill down the gurgler, 15? Realistically you can't come back from that sort of deficit no matter how much tin-rattling you do.

Hard at it. The Collingwood way.

[Murray]

And one other thing.
Footy and the League are constantly evolving.
We went from VFA to VFL to AFL.
We lost University, Fitzroy and South Melbourne.
We have seen players go from playing for nothing to a million dollars.
I am not so sure all those macro changes have been for the good, but they happened.
Cam, like you (and I guess your saying this) I think there will be more changes to come and we will not like some of them either.

There is nothing more certain than change.

DISCLAIMER - If any of my posts are contrary to the views of Mike or any of the other Mods then my views and opinions are to be totally ignored.

[molloymagic]

I have just 1 question that if it has been asked before and answered then i'm sorry. My question is: why is the salary cap for the lions and swans larger than any other afl side? is it because it cost's more to live there or what?

I have always thought that the AFL cared more for the coperate dollar than us regular supporters! Just look like joffa said at the tickets for the grand final,it's as easy as 1,2,3 for any coperate person to obtain one but oh my if a fan who has been there and lives for their AFL club trys to get one watch out! I think the prelim final is the fans final and the granny is mainly for people who don;t go to any games,don;t have a clue who's in the teams etc just go because well they can easily obtain tickets!!!!. If i have said anything that is incorrect then i'm sorry!
Jarrod Molloy RULES!!!!
*2003:The injury free season for Molloy!!*
*2002 Joint V.C*

[This message has been edited by molloymagic (edited 03 December 2002).]

[Northern Pie]

My understanding is that is cost of living in Sydney and incentive for players to stay in Brisbane rather than move back to their home state....if that is the case, is there a chance that we should get some extra money for players such as..Betheras, Buckley, Clement, Kinnear, Licuria, Lockyer, Wakelin, Walker, Woewodin, Lokin, Didak, Davis, Freeborn, Burns,
all of whom started their careers in football in another state. How much we gonna get to keep them??/ NADA!!!

Cheers



"NEVER LEAVE, NEVER GIVE UP ON THEM AND ALWAYS BE THERE AT THE END TO CLAP THEM OFF THE GROUND. WE ARE COLLINGWOOD SUPPORTERS SON, EVEN IF THEY BEAT US, WE ARE STILL BETTER THAN THEM!"(quote from my mum when I was 8 years old)

[Rowdy26]

There have been many interesting and valid point raised in this post. I find my self agreeing with everyone’s point of views.

There are many issues that need to be seriously addressed by the AFL. I think some of these issues need to be addressed outside the AFL body. The following ramble is generally geared to one issue – one that annoys me more than most, although there are several others that I might save for another time.

To me the most disappointing facet of our game is the fact someone can dedicate time weekend after weekend, year in year out, in sometimes atrocious weather conditions cheering on their beloved team with the ultimate dream of one day seeing them playing on that last Saturday in September. Yet when that rare moment finally arrives they find that they are basically “snobbed”, forgotten about, pushed into the background and told the best seat for the game is in front of your telly in the loungeroom.

To me this epitomizes what the AFL is about. The fact that someone can give their heart and soul to supporting and cheering on a club, charged ludicrous prices each week in order just to do this, used as pawns by the AFL, then get completely forgotten about when it really counts. It’s not right and there are better solutions.

Unfortunately the AFL isn’t prepared to look at these solutions. Instead they continue along the same well-trodden path demanding that we follow it. The trouble is that one end of the path they continue to extend and pave with gold, whist the other end falls to wreck and ruin through complete neglect or quick patch up jobs. Unfortunately for those who have relied on this path from the start, conditions have become so poor now they need to dig their own new paths (which sadly many are incapable of doing) or instead rely on being dragged along by the few dangling threads hanging from the AFL’s pocket. Sadly for some clubs and their supporters, those grasping these threads, the path has become so rough and bumping, and their own machines so rusted, that these last remaining threads by which they cling are frayed to the point where they’ll no longer be able to take much more. However the rear vision mirrors in the AFL’s menacing machine are either frosted over or don’t exist. All they can see is the lure of the golden shine ahead, and the attraction of the northern creatures they picked up hitchhiking along the way.

Everyone always says that you need the corporates for the survival of the game. Maybe we do, I dunno, maybe we don’t - but WHY are these groups guaranteed the privilege of grand final tickets. Sure they poor money into the clubs and the game, but they get what they pay for – advertising rights or other forms of recognition including first class seating at games during the home and away season. Why cherished grand final tickets are thrown in as sweeteners to these deals stinks. Its like someone at the end of a 2km grand final queue at 8:30am on the Sunday before the grandfinal walking up to the guard at the front of the queue and offering to give him $50 if he lets them jump to the front. It is morally wrong and yet it’s simply accepted because in the case of the AFL, sponsors and corporates are considered essential to the game. Essential? perhaps, but more important than the die hard paying fan? It stinks. There should be laws in place that stop this type of practice from occurring. If there was a uniform law across the board then everyone would know exactly where things stood. Clubs would not be allowed to offer these sweeteners. The public who pay for their season ticket and attend the game, whether they are full social club members, buckleys brigade members, regular season ticket holders or country supporter members… these people should be entitled to a ticket to the game they base their life around before anybody else. The MCG allegedly holds 98,000 odd. Surely more than 12,000 of each of the competing clubs members are entitled to attend. Somehow it just doesn’t quite add up in my mind. Simply one of many issues that continues to disenchant the normal fan. Does the AFL care? No – because they know that either way, that supporters love of their club will bring them back again the following year and the cycle will once again continue. The supporter will continue to be the used as the pawn in the greed driven association so that the AFL can carry on building its golden path forward, distancing itself even further from the dusty road and its users that are being left far behind.


Are we at deaths road you ask Joffa?

Well i'm certain that some of the less fortunate of us are on that road Joffa particularly those wearing red, white and blue hoops, and those in blue and white vertical stripes, and they aint heading towards the golden light. Unless the AFL and other associated groups realise this, then this death will be much sooner rather than later, and it wont stop at just them.

[Cam]

Well said Rowd. The path description is excellent.

Hard at it. The Collingwood way.

[Tio_Ray]

I wish AFL footy was the most popular game in the world....but that’s unrealistic(today)....and I also wish it was the main sport of every single state and territory in Australia....and it may be one day....but the AFL seems to think that the best way of doing this is to turn AFL footy into a pretend competition. The Ultimate prize of winning a grand final should not be contaminated with an unfair salary cap of 10 to 15% FULL STOP. Any perceived advantage the AFL believes it gains by making it an unfair competition is JUST NOT WORTH IT, why can't they see this? They have just gone too far, its disheartening and not an honourable way to establish the code in any state, its not smart at all.

Grass root support is the only way to go, but the AFL doesn't seem to understand how to do this (but they do understand they have to do this). I don't think even the AFL would say there efforts so far in establishing AFL footy in NSW and QLD is going that well. I would like to suggest that the AFL add the money they give to Sydney and Brisbane to the money they set aside for grass roots development and re-package their whole strategy to youth development in a much broader sense. This would not only form the foundations for forming a cooperative network between the AFL, schools, community and government but would also provide the AFL with access to resources and, government and community grants (which at the moment is out of their reach).

At the moment the AFL's efforts in regards to grass roots development appear to be half hearted or ill conceived. If they did play a more intricate role in youth development with all the above mentioned then they would finally have the ACCESS they require to begin building grass roots support. How to educate and motivate the kids, once they get the access is another thing but I will not go on about the details here as this post is already long enough.

I would like to finish this post by saying I have decided years ago to not attend any AFL match where the team that Collingwood plays is not playing on a level playing field. I had already decided in my heart that Collingwood had won the 2002 premiership and I could not be happier with 2002. To me, its simply ridicules and disgusting that a team can be sanctioned by the AFL to pay their players 15% over and above all and sundry, and at the same time the AFL just expects us to believe we are playing on a level playing field! It stinks, its not right and it degrades the entire competition.

Good Old Collingwood FOREVER.

[Cam]

Country footy is dying, country cricket is dying. Sport wise Australias golden age of national participation is on the wane. Just go to the country one weekend and see how many 40+ and -16 year olds are playing both. Its very sad, although its as much to do with jobs for 20+ year olds as anything.

Hard at it. The Collingwood way.

[Afro-Orfa]

No doubt the player payments soared out or proportion to the growth in footy in the last few years ... but why focus on limiting each players payments? There alreasy exists a salary cap (maybe not perfect) but it does ensure a more level playing field compared with the past when rich teams just bought the best players.

What I believe needs to be looked at is the support staff that has grown exponentially over the last few years ... the players are currently costing only around 25% of each clubs expenditure ... that seems to highlight that the other costs are sending clubs broke. Why should the Doggies have as much support staff etc as a more powerful, popular and cashed up club?

Extra coaching and better facilities etc are the privillege are the better-off teams. The draft ensures over time there is a level playing field in terms of access to players ... but there is always a spectrum in life ... there will always be rich and poor clubs as well as excellent to average footballers.

The AFL needs to ensure there is a balance between the socialst ideal of the draft and the free market approach of clubs competing for sponsorship, membership and facilities etc.

Go Pies!

[Murray]

Afro - I partly agree with you sentiments regarding support staff.
However, if the AFL was to allow the "Free market approach" to player payments it could only lead to the demise of several clubs and eventually leave a league of about 6 to 8 clubs who able to survive.
I accept that may be the point that you are making, but I think we need to keep as many clubs as possible otherwise the competition will become boring IMO.
Perhaps there is a middle way through the maze, if thee is I don't know what it is.

And Cam, if you are right, and I have no reason to doubt you, that sport in the country areas is dying, then that adds a worse dimention to the issue. Where do our future players come from? Will the standard of footballers drop?
The really are a lot of issues around this topic.

Am enjoying the reading, there really are some intelligent people on this BB with a great diversity of ideas - great stuff.

DISCLAIMER - If any of my posts are contrary to the views of Mike or any of the other Mods then my views and opinions are to be totally ignored.

[carnthepies1]

Firstly, the draft is a joke. How can it level the playing field when picks can be traded.
This is how the premiership winning side got 3rd pick for 2003.
That is disgraceful.
2nd, I agree that mercho outa be returned to the clubs.
This is how the English soccer clubs prosper, and are able to pay the ridicules saleries there players command.
3rd, I agree on the ticketing farce, It`s disgraceful that the corperations get the best tickets and in bulk. Classic example of this ,but a different code, World Cup Rugby here next year.
4th, Living in Bris, our coverage on tv of games has always been shocking and is no better with ten on the job. They, the AFL want us to pay to watch games,hence foxtel.
5th, Waverley was great, but the VFL got screwed by the state goverment at the time by not extending the rail line from Glen Waverley, as promised.
6th, Extended salery cap for interstaters, Bris should be fined and have it removed immediatly for trading 3 local boys to Melb clubs in order to get better players, as per the article in todays paper ,re, Essendon President remarks.
7th, The Scum, Bless there hearts,not! The afl would have been aware of there money probs a few years ago. By ignoring the probs, they have set them up beautifully for a move interstate. This would have been there agenda all along. Of course they will bail them out, if they move from Melb.
8th, It all boils down to greed, no more said.

[bokka]

the other side of the coin on player payments is they are the sporting elite of the country - a tiny fraction of all footy players - and deserve very high payment in return. They get a lot less than prof sportsmen in the US and Europe.
I don't agree that we should have a knee-jerk reaction about player payments without looking into it properly.
the way to do that is to look at the overall AFL economy. I think the players are the center and most important part of the game - could anyone disagree?- and should get close to their "marginal utility" - economic term for what they are worth economically to the competition. An economist would have to work it out. I'd be almost certain they are not getting that much now.
I'd be willing to bet that most of the top AFL executives get more than any of the players.
But anyway I suspect the real problem is wasting of money by the AFL - where does the 50 mill/year [or however much it is] for TV rights go? I doubt much goes to the clubs. And how much of the problem is due to huge costs of Colonial stadium and stuff like that? The AFL don't seem to be very accountable for where the money goes, I think everyone would like to see a full report on where it did go last year. I wouldn't be surprised if they botched the Colonial construction deal and have a huge debt burden now - it should have been done so that it would be profitable.