Fabulous Phil Carman

[Mossi]

[Piesnchess]

A fantastic exciting and dominating player, but he had shit for brains. Without a shadow of a doubt he cost us a flag, the 1977 GF, we would have bolted in the draw if he had played that day, but the nitwit had an unforgiveable brain fade. I still cannot forgive him, and yes, i was there, and it really did HAPPEN RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, YEP, RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pies4shaw]

I read the Board often (and have done for years). I almost never post.

But I couldn't let this topic pass. I've always thought that Phil(bulous) was conveniently scape-goated at the time to deflect attention from much bigger questions about what happened in the last quarter of the '77 GF: more or less "Carman's fault, end of story. Move on folks, nothing to see here."

However, as we hear MM say most weeks, "your best 22 are the ones that take the field". Carman didn't take the field in the '77 GF. The suggestion that he "cost us a flag" doesn't, I think, pass fair scrutiny. The 'Pies were 27 points up at three quarter time and had by then kicked 8 unanswered goals since quarter-time. They should have "bolted in" from there with or without Phil. Nevertheless, North was allowed to get in front before Collingwood snuck back for the draw. Carman wasn't responsible for any of the 8 unanswered goals the 'Pies kicked in the second and third quarters but he wasn't responsible for North's 5, inexplicable unanswered goals in the last, either. Just as Anthony Rocca wasn't responsible for anything that happened in the 2003 GF.

It made no sense to me when Phil(bulous) was traded. For my part, I've spent about 30 years wondering whether having an actual all-time class CHF who could run, jump, kick straight and had fully functioning knees might have made any difference in 1979 or 1981, when the team got close but couldn't quite put the opposition away. We'll never know because we spent those years watching him play for Melbourne and (mostly not) for Essendon.

Of course, there is a much fairer way to view Carman's game in the '77 Second SF, too. That's the view which acknowledges that, apart from getting involved in an incident he probably regrets, he helped snatch victory from the jaws of defeat with 2 late goals from CHF in a game decided by 2 points which put our beloved team into the GF.

Philbulous was (in my humble opinion) the most naturally talented footballer I ever saw play for the 'Pies (or anyone else - and I confess that I did go to many a North Melbourne game in 1982 just to see him). What seemed to me to be special about him was that he could do just about anything: he could outrun, outjump, outkick and generally outplay just about everyone in almost all aspects of the game. Would that there were some decent footage of him dismantling the team-which-cannot-be-named at Waverley in '77 ('pies by 102 pts) or again in the 1978 1st SF. Or of his magnificent performances in '75 against Essendon and St Kilda (the latter of which I recently heard Dermot Brereton describe as the best single perfomance he had seen by any player, ever) when, coming back from an 8-week leg injury, he wasn't fit enough to play the centre, so he dismantled opposition backlines from FF with a one-man song and dance routine. Or of any of his other countless feats of individual brilliance.

Phil was a remarkable player and he gave our club some of its best moments on the field in those flagless days. A lot of other very fine players also didn't lift a Cup for the 'pies in that era. Amongst even that company, Phabulous Phil was a rare genius and it is a shame he isn't more generally celebrated for what he did than for what he didn't do.

Like Mossi, I would have loved to see Greening, Daicos and Carman on the park at once. Now that WOULD have been something!

[MACDAICOS]

1977.

Enough said.

[stui magpie]

I never saw Greening but I remember Carmen. Think Gary Ablett Snr, with less muscle mass and a lot more endurance.

He could do anything he felt like on a footy field, it's a shame we didn't get him across earlier.

[piedys]

[raymond35]

excellent stuff pies4shaw.

i think phil would have made the difference though, as from memory we had Ross Dunne taking his spot at CHF and he was not the player of 7 or 8 years earlier.
good question about 1979 and 1981. remember phil was not half the superstar of 1975-1977 by that point. but he may have been enough to get us there.

EDIT- no, it would have been Rene Kink at CHF and Twig at FF

[Hiss]

Great post Joffa! It is pleasing to see so many fans that lived and breathed the sensational seventies. It was truly the last decade where home and away VFL footy was supreme. Standing in the outer with your meat pies and cans of VB were awesome! Phil Carmen was and still is one of the greatest of Collingwood legends! His style and image were so much of the changing times of the seventies. HSV 7 has really captured much of this in their DVD the Sensational Seventies! It even comes with a rather youthful Peter Landy. It gets me through every summer! Is Phil a life member of Collingwood yet?

[Piesnchess]

pies4shaw, i take your points, but as you say, we were 27 points up at three qtr time. But aside from one goal, twiggys, we were goal less in the final qtr right. ? MY point is that had Fabulous played, he may have booted four or five in that final qtr, he was capable of it, he was on fire before his dumb act. North would have had no chance then,and we would have bolted the flag in. Tom Hafey has always blamed Carman for the loss and i totally agree with him, Carman would have won us that flag for sure.

[nulla]

Agree, Hafey was never backward in coming forward on how important Carman was.

If he had played we would have won... simple as that, he was that far above others in ability and was a big game player

Ask Geoff Southby

[Lazza]

If Tom Hafey hadn't trained the absolute bloody crap out of the 1977 team between the tied grand final and the replay, the result WOULD have been different. They needed freshening up, not further torture on the track and the players were totally stuffed in the replay. Just ask any of them and they’ll tell you!
BTW, fantastic post Pies4shaw. Tremendous points that ring true with me too. I still haven't forgiven the 'pies for letting fabulous Phil go!! Geez, Collingwood has done some REALLY stupid things in our history and this was one of the biggest ones.

[Captain_MyCaptain]

[Piesnchess]

[3.14159]

Darren Millaine is the best player I've ever seen don the B/W guernsey!

Pants was the glue that held the Team together, Carmen was the acetate that pulled it apart!

[Lazza]