Jumping the queue

[stui magpie]

I'm happy to let Tannin run with this one in the main. I won't look at work today so I'll revisit this tonight.

1 point before I go to work. Any system that provides any advantage to people who choose to come here by boat, actively encourages people to engage in people smuggling. Profiteering in human misery.

Stop the boats coming, we kill off an abhorrent industry and put all the people wanting to come here back on a level playing field.

Those who have enough money and resources to get from Afghanistan to Indonesia and then pay people smugglers tens of thousands of dollars can use those same resources and money to try the front door thanks. The ones stuck in refugee camps aren't the ones on the boats.

[Culprit]

Unless we are prepared to sink the boats and let the so called "refugees" drown; nothing can be done to stop the influx of people wanting a better way to live.


We signed an agreement so we are basically screwed.

In saying that the fear campaign about boat people is poll driven to gain an advantage and more illegal freeloaders walk through our customs per week than what would arrive in four boat loads.

We are lucky we are on an island and it's very hard to get too. Look at the USA and UK. They virtually have no control of the slime that enters their country.


Under the United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees from 1951, a refugee is a person who (according to the formal definition in article 1A of this Convention), "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country".[1] The concept of a refugee was expanded by the Convention's 1967 Protocol and by regional conventions in Africa and Latin America to include persons who had fled war or other violence in their home country.

Under that definition 99% should be sent back to where they came.

I cannot believe we are in Afghanistan and not in the Sudan fixing their problems. Maybe it has something to do with there is nothing of value there.

[David]

This is a really fascinating argument, and one that I realise I have never quite got my head around.

Something that always seemed reasonably clear to me was that some sort of immigrant quota is necessary. After all, you open the borders, and everyone is going to want to come here by any means possible. So, on that level, I understood that some kind of detention was necessary.

I don't think Rudd was a card-carrying xenophobe. I'd even say the same about Howard. The fact that they took more or less identical policies on these issues (Howard was a little more brutal, Rudd a little more devious) suggests to me that there is no easy solution, whatever many left-wingers might say. On that level, I agree with the gist of Tannin's arguments: we need immigration rules, and we must take pains not to give incentives to people smugglers and illegal immigrants.

I think both sides are arguing this vigorously and intelligently, however (something we should never take for granted on Nick's!), so I'm fascinated to see how the arguments develop.

[Culprit]

Quota's mean sweet FA when people can come in legally and simply stay.

[Pied Piper]

^ And that is, in fact, how most illegal immigration happens.

Let's return to the question of boats. I am happy to quote a document from the Refugee Council of Australia here (the information is well sourced) to counter some myth-making. I think I have already answered the question of queues - there is no queue to jump - but to add to that:

[Culprit]

The term "Refugee" is being exploited by Human rights lawyers.

[Black_White]

[Black_White]

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1295782/Asylum-seekers-Myths-and-facts

[Colour Blind]

[stui magpie]

Which does make you wonder, if they can afford to pay 10's of thousands of dollars to people smugglers, why can't they get a holiday visa, a plane ticket and just come here and claim asylum?

While having this argument, spare a thought for the actual people smugglers. Not a bad business if you have zero morals and have some starting capital.

Buy a crappy fishing boat that may or may not be able to make it all the way to Australia, lets say $20,000.

Pay an indonesian fisherman to pilot the boat, taking the risk that he will drown or get arrested (cash up front to give to the family) say $10,000.

Charge 50 people lets say, $20,000 each to get on the boat.

Now even assuming you have to kick in a bit of extra for bribes you're still going to pocket over $800,000 on this exercise for absolutely no responsibility.

So every boat load of people we process and accept, encourages these people to seek out desperate people who're willing to pay and risk their lives. Isn't this an industry we should be trying to shut down rather than encourage? Particularly if 95% of asylum seekers arrive by air?

[HAL]

How much does it cost?

[Black_White]

[Pied Piper]

[Pied Piper]

[Colour Blind]