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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| roar wrote: | I have major respect for the diggers bravery but I wish more would remember the futility and stupidity of WWI, and how we were used as cannon fodder by the brits, who really had no love for us at all.
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Sorry, but I don't think that is true. Haig said that the Australians were fine soldiers and some of the best fighting soldiers (if some of the less disciplined!) in the Imperial Army. They were better nourished, and most importantly, they were volunteers, not conscripts, so they were fighting for what they believed in.
I don't know of any evidence that Australians were used as cannon fodder by the British to a greater extent than the British soldiers. British deaths at Gallipoli - 32000 ; Australian deaths 8200 : proportionately very similar. Of the 60,000 casualties on the first day of the Somme, few were Australian, though Australians suffered heavily in the Somme campaign at Fromelles and Pozieres weeks later. All troops were "cannon fodder" because noone knew how to break the stalemate. I think we should be wary of a national tale of victimhood about that war.
It was a hideous, filthy and catastrophic war, and perhaps it woudl have been better if it had not been fought. But Europe would have spent much of the twentieth century under autocratic and militarist government had the British Empire stayed out. It is not clear that the twntieth century woudl have been less bloody or brutalised under that scenario.
While it is understandable to feel that Australians shoudl never have been involved, that ignores the fact that Australia was then one of the most prosperous nations in the world as a result of imperial trading links. PNG was a German colony, and it is quite arguable that Australia, with its 5 million people, would have been threatened in due course by German imperialism, had Germany been allowed to dominate Europe.
Counter-factual history is a fool's errand, but it was in Australia's economic interest and in line with Australians' self-identity to be on Britain's side at that time. What those young men suffered, endured and accomplished deserves our enduring respect and sorrow. I agree heartily with RB's post above that Anzac Day shoudl be an act of remembrance of the horror of war, and a statement of determination to avoid it forever, unless it is forced upon us. The Howardite / Ray Martin circus is very sad. Such "remembrance" is in fact a way of forgetting.
_________________
Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sixpoints
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Location: Lulie Street
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[quote="Mugwump"][quote="roar"]I have major respect for the diggers bravery but I wish more would remember the futility and stupidity of WWI, and how we were used as cannon fodder by the brits, who really had no love for us at all.
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Sorry, but I don't think that is true. Haig said that the Australians were fine soldiers and some of the best fighting soldiers (if some of the less disciplined!) in the Imperial Army. They were better nourished, and most importantly, they were volunteers, not conscripts, so they were fighting for what they believed in.
I donlt know of any evidence that Australians were used as cannon fodder by the British to a greater extent than the British soldiers. British deaths at Gallipoli - 32000 ; Australian deaths 8200 : proportionately very similar. Of the 60,000 casualties on the first day of the Somme, few were Australian, though Australians suffered heavily in the Somme campaign at Fromelles and Pozieres weeks later. All troops were "cannon fodder" because noone knew how to break the stalemate. I think we should be wary of a national tale of victimhood about that war.
It was a hideous, filthy and catastrophic war, and perhaps it woudl have been better if it had not been fought. But Europe would have spent much of the twentieth century under autocratic and militarist government had the British Empire stayed out. It is not clear that the twntieth century woudl have been less bloody or brutalised under that scenario.
While it is understandable to feel that Australians shoudl never have been involved, that ignores the fact that Australia was then one of the most prosperous nations in the world as a result of imperial trading links. PNG was a German colony, and it is quite arguable that Australia, with its 5 million people, would have been threatened in due course by German imperialism, had Germany been allowed to dominate Europe.
Counter-factual history is a fool's errand, but it was in Australia's economic interest and in line with Australians' self-identity to be on Britain's side at that time. What those young men suffered, endured and accomplished deserves our enduring respect and sorrow. I agree heartily with RB's post above that Anzac Day shoudl be an act of remembrance of the horror of war, and a statement of determination to avoid it forever, unless it is forced upon us. The Howardite / Ray Martin circus is very sad. Such "remembrance" is in fact a way of forgetting. |
Well written. I concur 100%.
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| Born to Pie wrote: | The "hype" people mention about Gallipoli isn't about the glorification of war but a failed campaign that has become a symbol of Australia's national identity.
A battle, a long way from home and a long time ago that nearly destroyed a generation of Australians and committed another generation to another war. A lot of men were killed or wounded.
It was a defeat and it didn't change anything. But we're still interested in it.
For Australia, Gallipoli has become an important founding legend. It is attracting even greater attention as the 100th anniversary approaches.
Australians entered the Great War welcoming conflict as a test of our nationhood. Our nation had been born amid debate and referenda, not in war. The troops who landed on April 25, 1915- almost all civilians less than a year before - wondered how they would meet the challenge
The landing was a military disaster - it failed to meet its objectives. But merely hanging on in the face of determined Turkish attacks was triumph enough.
Charles Bean, the Australian official correspondent, declared that with the landing on Gallipoli a sense of Australian nationhood was born. The idea took root.
Bean defined what came to be called the Anzac legend, it encompassed bravery, ingenuity, endurance and the comradeship that Australians call mateship.
Nations create the history they need. Gallipoli, though the basis of the annual ritual of Anzac Day from the early 1920s, remained neglected as an historical event. For 50 years after Bean published his definitive official history very few seemed interested in the Great War.
For a time, in the aftermath of defeat in Vietnam, it seemed that Anzac Day might vanish into obscurity, like Empire Day.
But an assertive Australian national identity has returned to affirm the connection between Gallipoli and nationhood. On the 100th anniversary of the campaign Gallipoli remains interesting still. The anniversary has generated books, films, ceremonies and pilgrimages. Almost as many Australians attend the dawn ceremony at Anzac Cove as the same number of troops which landed there in 1915.
The Anzac legend has become elastic enough to span very different emotions. Fervent nationalists can exult; pilgrims can mourn. All can ponder what made that group of Australians able to endure one of the greatest tests their nation has ever faced.
This massive interest might be the result of careful marketing, by schools, publishers, the media or government agencies. But it seems that while the expression of interest might be directed, the consumption of the products seem to reflect the popular interest rather than manipulate it.
Gallipoli, a minor, failed campaign (which cost less than a sixth of the Australian deaths on the Western Front) fulfils a need felt by many Australians to connect with or express their national identity. Much of what is said or written makes tenuous history - it presents a defeat as a victory of sorts, ignores some aspects and boost others, often with a distinctly anti-British spin.
It is dodgy history because it says as much about what Australians today feel about themselves as it relates to the events of the campaign. Gallipoli has become a symbol of Australia's national identity, achievement and existence.
(Extracts from an article written by Dr Peter Stanley for ABC News Online's Anzac Day coverage in 2006.)
I had two Great Uncles who landed at Gallipoli on 25 April 1915, both were wounded, Stanley was treated for his wounds by his brother Eric, who then ran off to continue the fighting, Stanley was never seen again.
I have had family in every conflict Australia has been involved in since, including all recent conflicts. I myself have served overseas.
ANZAC Day isn't about the glorification of war it's a celebration of mateship and nationhood. A nation that was looking for it's identity in 1915 and still is today. |
I agree with most of what you say, but it is glorification of war by having fiascos like this awful Camp Galliopli, where punters are fleeced hundreds of dollars to so called replicate in some obscene way, what the original diggers went thru at Gallipoli, with no shells, gunfire, shocking food, millions of flies and dead bodies. They get yuppie food, wine and replica digger swags that cost $250 each. a total joke. Its also glorification to flog peaked caps, scarves, mugs, keyrings, fridge magnets, with Gallipoli written on them, all made in china, these are nothng but tacky souvenirs, business and entrepreneurs should never make money out of war, war should never be commercial. I used to be very proud on Anzac day, for my three great uncles who died, my grandad who was gassed on the somme, and my own late father who served 1939-45, Lieutenant, and they all loathed war, and they would be furious how Anzac day has become some commercial money zone, taken over by business and politicians who never served. I will march tomorrow for my forebears, then tune out, I have had enough of the spin and hype of it all.
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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[quote="sixpoints"][quote="Mugwump"] | roar wrote: | I have major respect for the diggers bravery but I wish more would remember the futility and stupidity of WWI, and how we were used as cannon fodder by the brits, who really had no love for us at all.
| Quote: |
Sorry, but I don't think that is true. Haig said that the Australians were fine soldiers and some of the best fighting soldiers (if some of the less disciplined!) in the Imperial Army. They were better nourished, and most importantly, they were volunteers, not conscripts, so they were fighting for what they believed in.
I donlt know of any evidence that Australians were used as cannon fodder by the British to a greater extent than the British soldiers. British deaths at Gallipoli - 32000 ; Australian deaths 8200 : proportionately very similar. Of the 60,000 casualties on the first day of the Somme, few were Australian, though Australians suffered heavily in the Somme campaign at Fromelles and Pozieres weeks later. All troops were "cannon fodder" because noone knew how to break the stalemate. I think we should be wary of a national tale of victimhood about that war.
It was a hideous, filthy and catastrophic war, and perhaps it woudl have been better if it had not been fought. But Europe would have spent much of the twentieth century under autocratic and militarist government had the British Empire stayed out. It is not clear that the twntieth century woudl have been less bloody or brutalised under that scenario.
While it is understandable to feel that Australians shoudl never have been involved, that ignores the fact that Australia was then one of the most prosperous nations in the world as a result of imperial trading links. PNG was a German colony, and it is quite arguable that Australia, with its 5 million people, would have been threatened in due course by German imperialism, had Germany been allowed to dominate Europe.
Counter-factual history is a fool's errand, but it was in Australia's economic interest and in line with Australians' self-identity to be on Britain's side at that time. What those young men suffered, endured and accomplished deserves our enduring respect and sorrow. I agree heartily with RB's post above that Anzac Day shoudl be an act of remembrance of the horror of war, and a statement of determination to avoid it forever, unless it is forced upon us. The Howardite / Ray Martin circus is very sad. Such "remembrance" is in fact a way of forgetting. |
Well written. I concur 100%. |
Haig was a total bloody idiot, who sent hundreds of thousands of british and commonwealth troops to their deaths, in useless charges, time and again, against heavy artillery and machine guns, and he never learnt, he still kept sending them over the top, to certain death. He had a massive ego, and he never learnt from his terrible mistakes either. 
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Piesnchess wrote: |
Haig was a total bloody idiot, who sent hundreds of thousands of british and commonwealth troops to their deaths, in useless charges, time and again, against heavy artillery and machine guns, and he never learnt, he still kept sending them over the top, to certain death. He had a massive ego, and he never learnt from his terrible mistakes either. |
No strategic genius, but certainly not "a total bloody idiot" either. If you had sat in his chair in 1916 and 1917, and been subjected to the same pressures, you might well have made the same calculcations and decisions that he did. The two infamous events of Haig's war were the battle of the Somme, and the 60,000 first-day casualties ; and the quagmire of Passchendaele.
The Somme was considered necessary because the French Army was very near to breaking point at Verdun and something had to be done to open another front. No-one knew how to overcome static warfare in an age of the machine gun, high explosive shells and barbed wire. After five months of an immensely bloody and costly campiagn, the British Army had learned many lessons and took most of its objectives (though it lost them again, briefly, in April 1918). It's worth a look at the excellent BBC programme : "The Somme: From defeat to Victory" which is now available on Youtube.
Passchendaele was more questionable, but it too had its origins in a desire to relieve the pressure on two allies close to collapse ; the French, again, after the disastrous Nivelle offensive had led to several major mutinies in the French Army; and the Russians, who Haig correctly judged were close to capitulation.
In the last few months I've spent most of my non-working hours studying the First World War, in which one of my great-uncles survived, while another perished, like so many others. I went to his grave in Vignacourt outside Amiens earlier this year. I was surprised at how little I knew when I started - and especially how little I knew, as an Australian, of the wider Gallipoli story. Serious historians have argued to-and-fro over the rights and wrongs of Haig's strategy and tactics, but few would share your simple view above. Blackadder goes Forth was a great comedy series, but it is not great history. I'm not having a go at you (I always love your passionate Pies histories), but this is one where I think there's more to it.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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partypie
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
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| The AFL app has a neat section under ANZAC Day round for searching details of WW1 veterans. I just looked up the details of my grandfather who served on the Western Front. it summarises and is easier to read than the service records. Worth a look.
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Born to Pie wrote: | The "hype" people mention about Gallipoli isn't about the glorification of war but a failed campaign that has become a symbol of Australia's national identity.
A battle, a long way from home and a long time ago that nearly destroyed a generation of Australians and committed another generation to another war. A lot of men were killed or wounded.
It was a defeat and it didn't change anything. But we're still interested in it.
For Australia, Gallipoli has become an important founding legend. It is attracting even greater attention as the 100th anniversary approaches.
Australians entered the Great War welcoming conflict as a test of our nationhood. Our nation had been born amid debate and referenda, not in war. The troops who landed on April 25, 1915- almost all civilians less than a year before - wondered how they would meet the challenge
The landing was a military disaster - it failed to meet its objectives. But merely hanging on in the face of determined Turkish attacks was triumph enough.
Charles Bean, the Australian official correspondent, declared that with the landing on Gallipoli a sense of Australian nationhood was born. The idea took root.
Bean defined what came to be called the Anzac legend, it encompassed bravery, ingenuity, endurance and the comradeship that Australians call mateship.
Nations create the history they need. Gallipoli, though the basis of the annual ritual of Anzac Day from the early 1920s, remained neglected as an historical event. For 50 years after Bean published his definitive official history very few seemed interested in the Great War.
For a time, in the aftermath of defeat in Vietnam, it seemed that Anzac Day might vanish into obscurity, like Empire Day.
But an assertive Australian national identity has returned to affirm the connection between Gallipoli and nationhood. On the 100th anniversary of the campaign Gallipoli remains interesting still. The anniversary has generated books, films, ceremonies and pilgrimages. Almost as many Australians attend the dawn ceremony at Anzac Cove as the same number of troops which landed there in 1915.
The Anzac legend has become elastic enough to span very different emotions. Fervent nationalists can exult; pilgrims can mourn. All can ponder what made that group of Australians able to endure one of the greatest tests their nation has ever faced.
This massive interest might be the result of careful marketing, by schools, publishers, the media or government agencies. But it seems that while the expression of interest might be directed, the consumption of the products seem to reflect the popular interest rather than manipulate it.
Gallipoli, a minor, failed campaign (which cost less than a sixth of the Australian deaths on the Western Front) fulfils a need felt by many Australians to connect with or express their national identity. Much of what is said or written makes tenuous history - it presents a defeat as a victory of sorts, ignores some aspects and boost others, often with a distinctly anti-British spin.
It is dodgy history because it says as much about what Australians today feel about themselves as it relates to the events of the campaign. Gallipoli has become a symbol of Australia's national identity, achievement and existence.
(Extracts from an article written by Dr Peter Stanley for ABC News Online's Anzac Day coverage in 2006.)
I had two Great Uncles who landed at Gallipoli on 25 April 1915, both were wounded, Stanley was treated for his wounds by his brother Eric, who then ran off to continue the fighting, Stanley was never seen again.
I have had family in every conflict Australia has been involved in since, including all recent conflicts. I myself have served overseas.
ANZAC Day isn't about the glorification of war it's a celebration of mateship and nationhood. A nation that was looking for it's identity in 1915 and still is today. |
Thank you for your service.
Thankyou also for this post. A thoroughly enjoyable read.
I don't know much about my families history before my parents. I'm English born, and have only 1 aunt here. I've been here since I was 7. All I know is my grandfather was a bomb disposal expert, and the risk to the family saw my mother and sisters shipped overseas for safety, to Hong Kong and South Africa. Post world war 2 both my parents met in the RAAF in Germany, where they got married. Mum was military police, dad an engineer. My mum left the force on returning to England, dad stayed and we even lived in Cyprus for 3 years when I was a baby. I wish now, I'd asked my mum for more information.
Yes Anzac Day is now too commercial, but what isn't? We used to go to the parade when I was a kid. Dad took us. I really enjoy the solomn start to the Anzac Day game. I enjoy that we can come together, and give silent thanks as one. The commercialism is wrong, but you don't have to partake. I will do as I always do, buy a badge at the game and add it to my Guernsey collection. And if I see any old diggers around I will shake their hand and say "Thankyou for your service", yes it's an American thing, but it's lovely. Today is not about is war right or wrong, it's about saying thanks to our service men and women, for trying to give us all a better life. A free life. For one day winning or losing those wars, or the futility of them, should not matter (except on the field!). It's the sacrifice we are saying Thankyou for.
May peace be with them all.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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ANNODAM 
Rebel Heart Tour - The Forum, Los Angeles 27/10/2015.
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Location: Eltham, VIC.
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On a personal level, ANZAC Day doesn't mean anything to me, or any members of my extended family, just another Public Holiday.
I do, however, understand how it means a great deal to a lot of people but I was lucky in that I had no relatives who fought in any Wars.
In all honesty, I couldn't even tell you (without Googling that is) what the word ANZAC stands for, all I know it has something to do with Australia & New Zealand --- blame the Public Education system for abandoning History as a subject!
Anyway, my parents (born way after WWII) weren't even supposed to migrate here, they were headed to Canada initially & made the last minute decision to come to Australia instead.
Next year, my daughter is going to an overseas trip with her school for 6 weeks, they'll be visiting China, Gallipoli & Greece, but they're studying History in schools now, so she knows a lot more about ANZAC Day than I ever will...
_________________
WE WERE ROBBED, RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, RIGHT IN FRONT OF MEEE!
N.Y METS, N.Y GIANTS, PENRITH PANTHERS & HOBART HURRICANES FAN.
WE ALL LOOK GOOD AT TRAINING, IT'S THE MATCHES THAT COUNT! |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| ANZAC day should be a solemn reminder of the horrors and senselessness of war. I have no time for nationalist jingoism and I will never attend schoolies week at ANZAC cove. I just want this day to remind us why we should do all in our power to promote peace and avoid war wherever possible. Lest we forget.
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| Mugwump wrote: | | Piesnchess wrote: |
Haig was a total bloody idiot, who sent hundreds of thousands of british and commonwealth troops to their deaths, in useless charges, time and again, against heavy artillery and machine guns, and he never learnt, he still kept sending them over the top, to certain death. He had a massive ego, and he never learnt from his terrible mistakes either. |
No strategic genius, but certainly not "a total bloody idiot" either. If you had sat in his chair in 1916 and 1917, and been subjected to the same pressures, you might well have made the same calculcations and decisions that he did. The two infamous events of Haig's war were the battle of the Somme, and the 60,000 first-day casualties ; and the quagmire of Passchendaele.
The Somme was considered necessary because the French Army was very near to breaking point at Verdun and something had to be done to open another front. No-one knew how to overcome static warfare in an age of the machine gun, high explosive shells and barbed wire. After five months of an immensely bloody and costly campiagn, the British Army had learned many lessons and took most of its objectives (though it lost them again, briefly, in April 1918). It's worth a look at the excellent BBC programme : "The Somme: From defeat to Victory" which is now available on Youtube.
Passchendaele was more questionable, but it too had its origins in a desire to relieve the pressure on two allies close to collapse ; the French, again, after the disastrous Nivelle offensive had led to several major mutinies in the French Army; and the Russians, who Haig correctly judged were close to capitulation.
In the last few months I've spent most of my non-working hours studying the First World War, in which one of my great-uncles survived, while another perished, like so many others. I went to his grave in Vignacourt outside Amiens earlier this year. I was surprised at how little I knew when I started - and especially how little I knew, as an Australian, of the wider Gallipoli story. Serious historians have argued to-and-fro over the rights and wrongs of Haig's strategy and tactics, but few would share your simple view above. Blackadder goes Forth was a great comedy series, but it is not great history. I'm not having a go at you (I always love your passionate Pies histories), but this is one where I think there's more to it. |
Sorry mate, I stand by my assessment of Haig, had I sat in his chair, as you say, I would never have ordered charge after charge, after that first terrible day, in which some 23 000 soldiers were killed and wounded. He never learnt, he just kept sending waves of young men to their deaths, day after bloody day., I also have read a lot about this character, and his monumental blunders, and he has massive blood on his hands, thru utter stupidity and pigheadedness. Our own general Monash was a far, far better strategist than this fool, he really cared for his troops, stopped useless charges against machine guns and artillery, and was years ahead of his time. Monash was far superior to Haig in every respect..I guess we just have to agree too disagree, but there it is, nothing wrong with that. 
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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Proud Pies 
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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I wont be attending the city march this year, first time in seven yrs. Im going down to Leongatha, where my son lives, to take part in a country service, for once. I will wear Dads medals, my son will wear his grandfathers, go to the dawn service, then back to the local RSL for the gunfire breakfast. Then we will attend the main service at the cenotaph, then back to the RSL (Leongatha has a terrific RSL, great bistro ) for drinks and lunch, and watch the Pies hopefully have a victory. Should be a great day.
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| Piesnchess wrote: | | I wont be attending the city march this year, first time in seven yrs. Im going down to Leongatha, where my son lives, to take part in a country service, for once. I will wear Dads medals, my son will wear his grandfathers, go to the dawn service, then back to the local RSL for the gunfire breakfast. Then we will attend the main service at the cenotaph, then back to the RSL (Leongatha has a terrific RSL, great bistro ) for drinks and lunch, and watch the Pies hopefully have a victory. Should be a great day. |
nice little town leongatha but not much goes on there. always stop there for coffee or supplies on the way down to the prom. haven't been to the rsl but have been told it's good.
dawn service, nap and game for me as per usual.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| OK I'll try not to do there for coffee or supplies on the way down to the prom so much.
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