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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| sherrife wrote: | | That's why Jack is living in dream world. He thinks somehow that the US wants peace and love and harmony. It doesn't. Like every other nation (including Australia) it just wants to control and dominate as much as it can. Everything that has followed from 9/11 has been planned and logical from their perspective. |
It always has to be one thing or another, doesn't it?
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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| David wrote: | | sherrife wrote: | | That's why Jack is living in dream world. He thinks somehow that the US wants peace and love and harmony. It doesn't. Like every other nation (including Australia) it just wants to control and dominate as much as it can. Everything that has followed from 9/11 has been planned and logical from their perspective. |
It always has to be one thing or another, doesn't it? |
But what Omar says is pretty much spot on David.
Happy to debate any of those 3 points with you if you are interested
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The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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jack_spain 
Joined: 03 May 2008
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| sherrife wrote: | That's why Jack is living in dream world. He thinks somehow that the US wants peace and love and harmony. It doesn't. Like every other nation (including Australia) it just wants to control and dominate as much as it can. Everything that has followed from 9/11 has been planned and logical from their perspective.
We only have the Iraqi resistance to thank for bringing their plans to a complete stop. |
Once again sherrife you haven't read my argument. Don't they teach that in universities any more these days (actually they don't!)? Any fair minded person would see that I am extremely critical of the US and even suggest their complicity in the 9/11 attacks. I do believe however that a great number of Americans (in the tens of millions) are peace-loving individuals who are as critical or more so of their government than we are. Hence the huge number of conspiracy theories (and the 9/11 Truth Movement). But you'd rather engage in your knee-jerk Jacobean hatred of all things American.
Many Americans are sick of the war in Iraq as much as we are. They cannot be held responsible for a gangster regime that stole the 2000 election (fact - the vote in Florida was stolen and rubber stamped by the Republican dominated Supreme Court).
So you are right that I hate the Bush/Cheney regime (and mark my words Cheney has been the power behind the throne all these years). And yes, I agree the war in Iraq was over oil. But please don't patronise me by suggesting my belief that we should work for peaceful diplomatic resolutions is a dream world. It takes a dream, I'll grant you that, and leaders like Martin Luther King to inspire people. What the world lacks today is real moral political leaders.
If you believe for a moment that a peaceful stable Iraq can be forged out of violent insurrection as is displayed now, then I believe you are the one dreaming - except in this case it is a nightmare. Just ask the people who are living in constant terror of the suicide bombers. It is very safe for you to hold those views in the relaxed bourgeois comfort of your armchair. I invite you to go over (like David Hicks) and join the freedom fighters. Well, go on. Why don't you? 
| Alec. J. Hidell wrote: |
But what Omar says is pretty much spot on David.
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And Lone Gunman, you should know better!
Last edited by jack_spain on Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| fan4collingwood wrote: | | Alec. J. Hidell wrote: | I think Franks Stone really was Joffa.
I got pretty good inside information, trust me on this one.
Think about, when one got sick, the other one suddenly disappeared. |
But you are still posting Alec, and the man in gold is still in Hospital. |
Maybe he should just use an unpronounceable symbol as his name, like Prince.
It could stand for the bullsh1t artist formally known as Frank Stone. 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
Last edited by stui magpie on Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sherrife 
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| jack_spain wrote: |
I do believe however that a great number of Americans (in the tens of millions) are peace-loving individuals who are as critical or more so of their government than we are.
Many Americans are sick of the war in Iraq as much as we are. They cannot be held responsible for a gangster regime that stole the 2000 election (fact - the vote in Florida was stolen and rubber stamped by the Republican dominated Supreme Court).
So you are right that I hate the Bush/Cheney regime (and mark my words Cheney has been the power behind the throne all these years). And yes, I agree the war in Iraq was over oil. |
I agree with you on all those points. I don't think you were clear enough if you did make a distinction between the government and ordinary people. Anyway, good, we agree there. So ordinary people in both Australia and America are not having their views represented by the liberal democracy that you so cherish.
Next!
| jack_spain wrote: | | I'll grant you that, and leaders like Martin Luther King to inspire people. What the world lacks today is real moral political leaders. |
Martin Luther King was gradually becoming a socialist over the years, and he was killed a few days after giving a momentous speech to the most radical trade union in the states at the time, pushing them to declare a general strike (a classic socialist tactic). So he's OUR hero, not yours.
| jack_spain wrote: | | If you believe for a moment that a peaceful stable Iraq can be forged out of violent insurrection as is displayed now, then I believe you are the one dreaming - except in this case it is a nightmare. Just ask the people who are living in constant terror of the suicide bombers. |
I believe that people who don't believe that those living in the third world can govern themselves are fundamentally racist. Typical liberal, you can't resist the white man's burden.
| jack_spain wrote: | I invite you to go over (like David Hicks) and join the freedom fighters. Well, go on. Why don't you?
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I don't support terrorism as a strategy at all. I'm a socialist, I believe in the self-emancipation of the working class via strikes and mass revolutions.
| International Socialism wrote: | Suicide bombings are not some barbaric throwback to pre-modernity. They are a horribly distorted response to the very real horrors of imperialism and capitalism. The scale and reach of some present-day attacks is greater than any terrorist organisation has been able to carry out in the past. But the devastation and death toll are is still on a massively smaller scale than that routinely inflicted by the armed forces of ‘civilised’ states.
The Marxist tradition has never approved of terrorism as a method of social change, and sees it as a counterproductive strategy. But we cannot join in the condemnations that pour from the lips of politicians and from the media—despite enormous pressure to do so. We cannot begin to shape our critique of terrorism meaningfully unless we start with the horrors of imperialist violence and the Islamophobic racism directed at Muslims. We shall not be able to intervene in the movement to explain why young Muslims resort to such terrible tactics. Nor will be able to offer an alternative that can offer hope to those whose despair pushes them into the dead end of terrorism. |
http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=182&issue=110
_________________
I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs
Last edited by sherrife on Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| How do you feel about these people? |
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jack_spain
Joined: 03 May 2008
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Hey sherrife. You think I'm living in a dream world?
Workers revolution - there's never been one! Every revolution so far has come from an educated bourgeois vanguard (e.g. Who else were Lenin and Trotsky? They sure didn't get their hands dirty down in those mines). And all revolution achieves is a perpetuation of the cycle of oppression. Yesterday's oppressed becomes tomorrow's oppressors. Just ask the Russians, the Chinese, the Cubans, etc. 
But you wouldn't live in a country like that would you? You'd rather enjoy the luxuries and freedoms of a liberal Western society. If not, I invite you to go and experience life in one of your socialist utopias (like Libya!  ). |
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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There goes the rational debate.
1 point to me 
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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jack_spain
Joined: 03 May 2008
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^ You still haven't told me why you won't go to one of your socialist utopias to live. Can't find ANY can you? That's because all utopian dreams are as mythical as Atlantis.
What debate? I'm still waiting for you to address the points I raised in my first post on this page. |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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| jack_spain wrote: | ^ You still haven't told me why you won't go to one of your socialist utopias to live. Can't find ANY can you? That's because all utopian dreams are as mythical as Atlantis.
What debate? I'm still waiting for you to address the points I raised in my first post on this page. |
............... because the US will not allow their creation (Chile) or squash them economically (Cuba)
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The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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Thanks David, your point about Chile is spot on (they wouldn't even allow a country to elect a reformist social-democrat!) but Cuba is a totalitarian society -> not socialist at all.
And so what if socialism doesn't exist at the moment. I think you'll find that capitalism didn't exist in feudal Europe. That has to be the most spurious argument I've ever heard. Also, I don't see many states acting for the benefit of humanity they way that you would like either. I think the liberal vision of a happy international community of nation-states is just as much of a dream as socialism.
And what debate?
I think you'll find plenty in this:
| sherrife wrote: | | jack_spain wrote: |
I do believe however that a great number of Americans (in the tens of millions) are peace-loving individuals who are as critical or more so of their government than we are.
Many Americans are sick of the war in Iraq as much as we are. They cannot be held responsible for a gangster regime that stole the 2000 election (fact - the vote in Florida was stolen and rubber stamped by the Republican dominated Supreme Court).
So you are right that I hate the Bush/Cheney regime (and mark my words Cheney has been the power behind the throne all these years). And yes, I agree the war in Iraq was over oil. |
I agree with you on all those points. I don't think you were clear enough if you did make a distinction between the government and ordinary people. Anyway, good, we agree there. So ordinary people in both Australia and America are not having their views represented by the liberal democracy that you so cherish.
Next!
| jack_spain wrote: | | I'll grant you that, and leaders like Martin Luther King to inspire people. What the world lacks today is real moral political leaders. |
Martin Luther King was gradually becoming a socialist over the years, and he was killed a few days after giving a momentous speech to the most radical trade union in the states at the time, pushing them to declare a general strike (a classic socialist tactic). So he's OUR hero, not yours.
| jack_spain wrote: | | If you believe for a moment that a peaceful stable Iraq can be forged out of violent insurrection as is displayed now, then I believe you are the one dreaming - except in this case it is a nightmare. Just ask the people who are living in constant terror of the suicide bombers. |
I believe that people who don't believe that those living in the third world can govern themselves are fundamentally racist. Typical liberal, you can't resist the white man's burden.
| jack_spain wrote: | I invite you to go over (like David Hicks) and join the freedom fighters. Well, go on. Why don't you?
|
I don't support terrorism as a strategy at all. I'm a socialist, I believe in the self-emancipation of the working class via strikes and mass revolutions.
| International Socialism wrote: | Suicide bombings are not some barbaric throwback to pre-modernity. They are a horribly distorted response to the very real horrors of imperialism and capitalism. The scale and reach of some present-day attacks is greater than any terrorist organisation has been able to carry out in the past. But the devastation and death toll are is still on a massively smaller scale than that routinely inflicted by the armed forces of ‘civilised’ states.
The Marxist tradition has never approved of terrorism as a method of social change, and sees it as a counterproductive strategy. But we cannot join in the condemnations that pour from the lips of politicians and from the media—despite enormous pressure to do so. We cannot begin to shape our critique of terrorism meaningfully unless we start with the horrors of imperialist violence and the Islamophobic racism directed at Muslims. We shall not be able to intervene in the movement to explain why young Muslims resort to such terrible tactics. Nor will be able to offer an alternative that can offer hope to those whose despair pushes them into the dead end of terrorism. |
http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=182&issue=110 |
_________________
I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| sherrife wrote: | | Thanks David, your point about Chile is spot on |
I think that was the poster formerly known as Frank Stone who said that  I don't think anyone's gotten us mixed up before!
AJH, what were the three points again, just to clarify? I'm confused (but not as confused as Omar )
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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Shit, I dunno, I forgot.
Anyhoo, you wanna debate something???
_________________
The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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yes...
Is there any merit to the JFK conspiracy theories? 
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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fan4collingwood
Joined: 17 May 2002
Location: Seaford Rise , Adelaide SA Australia
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| David wrote: | yes...
Is there any merit to the JFK conspiracy theories? |
Didn't Didak do dat?
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Kaylene.
Member of the SA Magpies, http://samagpies.magpies.net
Official Supporters’ Group of the Collingwood Football Club |
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