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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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| sherrife wrote: | | OEP wrote: | | sherrife wrote: | Remember Kosovo, Haiti, Somalia, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Korea, Palestine etc?
The armed forces of "democratic nations", have killed far more civilians than Al Qaeda or any fundamentalist from any side could dream of killing. Hell, POLICEPEOPLE have killed more civilians during strikes and protests than terrorists.
Oh, and remember the Indigenous people of Australia?
Lets keep our moral outrage under control, our nation is far bigger murderers of civilians than any terrorist group. |
Keep our moral outrage under control ???
Just because others have killed more doesn't make terrorism any less repugnant. You need to stop down playing these peoples actions.
As i've said before the killing of any unarmed civilians is offensive. |
Exactly, and by that simple (and effective) logic, we have offended FAR more than any terrorist group.
You've got a (common) view that somehow terrorism is worse than "regular" military action, and I want to know why. |
Because in contrast to terrorism 'regular' military action does not usually deliberately target civilians. Most military personnel (all that I've known) do everything possible to avoid killing civilians. Terrorists on the other hand make no distinction between civilian and military personnel. |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| nomadjack wrote: | | Because in contrast to terrorism 'regular' military action does not usually deliberately target civilians. Most military personnel (all that I've known) do everything possible to avoid killing civilians. Terrorists on the other hand make no distinction between civilian and military personnel. |
Israel makes no distinction in their attacks against the Palestinians, their aim is to take out the so called leaders of Hamas etc and if they kill 50 children in the process so be it. The Suicide bombers who detonate themselves in public in Israel do so in retaliation. Tit for Tat stuff, it's just that one side has weapons the other has rocks. |
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sherrife 
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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Yeah, that is a fair argument, but I think it is flawed:
Intentions are one thing, but the reality is that armies kill more civilians then terrorists do. I mean, why is a suicide bomber worse for killing 10 civilians on purpose than an officer who orders the carpet bombing of a city knowing that 100 will probably die.
I agree that the average soldier is less culpable for his/her civilian deaths than a suicide bomber; most of them are decent people just 'doing their job' (part of the problem IMO), but the average officer who calls bombing raids or decides to use (what is almost always) excessive force as a tactic is far worse than both IMO.
To use a concrete example, I think Israeli officers are far worse than Palestinian suicide bombers, even without the political context, simply because they kill 10 times more civilians, and do so just as knowingly as the suicide bombers.
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Culprit wrote: | [quote="nomadjack"]Because in contrast to terrorism 'regular' military action does not usually deliberately target civilians. Most military personnel (all that I've known) do everything possible to avoid killing civilians. Terrorists on the other hand make no distinction between civilian and military personnel.[/quote]
Israel makes no distinction in their attacks against the Palestinians, their aim is to take out the so called leaders of Hamas etc and if they kill 50 children in the process so be it. The Suicide bombers who detonate themselves in public in Israel do so in retaliation. Tit for Tat stuff, it's just that one side has weapons the other has rocks. |
The ALICE chat robot can follow many things, like our discussion about couragous act. Try being more or less specific. What's your sign? Have you ever been to Europe? |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| nomadjack wrote: | | sherrife wrote: | | OEP wrote: | | sherrife wrote: | Remember Kosovo, Haiti, Somalia, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Korea, Palestine etc?
The armed forces of "democratic nations", have killed far more civilians than Al Qaeda or any fundamentalist from any side could dream of killing. Hell, POLICEPEOPLE have killed more civilians during strikes and protests than terrorists.
Oh, and remember the Indigenous people of Australia?
Lets keep our moral outrage under control, our nation is far bigger murderers of civilians than any terrorist group. |
Keep our moral outrage under control ???
Just because others have killed more doesn't make terrorism any less repugnant. You need to stop down playing these peoples actions.
As i've said before the killing of any unarmed civilians is offensive. |
Exactly, and by that simple (and effective) logic, we have offended FAR more than any terrorist group.
You've got a (common) view that somehow terrorism is worse than "regular" military action, and I want to know why. |
Because in contrast to terrorism 'regular' military action does not usually deliberately target civilians. Most military personnel (all that I've known) do everything possible to avoid killing civilians. Terrorists on the other hand make no distinction between civilian and military personnel. |
I think that sums it up pretty succinctly.
You could also say that, in many cases, terrorists deliberately target civilians (Madrid, for example).
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Zakal
One Game, One Club, One Jumper
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
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| sherrife wrote: | Yeah, that is a fair argument, but I think it is flawed:
Intentions are one thing, but the reality is that armies kill more civilians then terrorists do. I mean, why is a suicide bomber worse for killing 10 civilians on purpose than an officer who orders the carpet bombing of a city knowing that 100 will probably die.
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Intention forms a large part of the assessment of most serious crimes. If i pull out a gun and shoot you deliberately, its far worse than if accidentally shoot you.
End result for you is the same, your dead. But as you say later in your post, my moral culpabilty is much less.
As for the argument about officers/generals/commanders etc vs a suicide bomber, i have to say i agree with you.
The previous examples of genocide you mentioned are also just as cowardly.
However what i have a problem with is the argument that one is cowardly because the other is just as cowardly, or is cowardly more often. The targeting of civilians IS COWARDLY...full stop, end of story. I dont care if you're white, black, American, Palestinian, African, European or Australian....if you intentionally drag innocent people into your dispute to get your point across or win your war, you are a coward and a pig...and if people die as a result of your "accident" dont think that lets you off the hook either, yes you are perhaps less culpable, but youre actions have still resulted in someones death. You must still answer to humanity. |
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bwphantom 
It's Better to Burn Out Than to Fade Away
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Location: Brisbane QLD
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Being Ex Army I can say we as an armed forces unit would not intentionally kill Civvy's. However, in some cases can not be avoided. I am not condoning either sides actions as i believe War is an act of cowardice. In perfect world mankind would not kill each other, but we live in a world where hatred reigns and killing is commonplace in some countries. Sherrife I respect your position and i agree with you, and nomad you are correct as well. The only resolve to this is for all to lay down weapons and stop the killing. But that is just not going to happen.
Neither side is justified in what they do to achieve their means. Killing is wrong whether it is by suicide bombs or from afar. But the reality is no matter what we say or do we have no control over the situation.
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All this may be summed up in one word - CHARACTER - and if that is not worth developing, nothing is.
Jock McHale |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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| Culprit wrote: | | nomadjack wrote: | | Because in contrast to terrorism 'regular' military action does not usually deliberately target civilians. Most military personnel (all that I've known) do everything possible to avoid killing civilians. Terrorists on the other hand make no distinction between civilian and military personnel. |
Israel makes no distinction in their attacks against the Palestinians, their aim is to take out the so called leaders of Hamas etc and if they kill 50 children in the process so be it. The Suicide bombers who detonate themselves in public in Israel do so in retaliation. Tit for Tat stuff, it's just that one side has weapons the other has rocks. |
That is simply not true Culprit. The IDF does make such distinctions even in its targetted killing campaign.
No military officer or soldier I have ever spoken to or read about enjoys killing for the sake of killing. Unfortunately wars exist and therefore decisions such as balancing the lives of soldiers both enemy and allied, and the lives of civilians, have to be made. I'm glad I've never been made to make such decisions because I'm damn sure it's easier to pontificate from the cheap seats that to have to make such a terrible choice. I'm confident its a choice rarely made lightly. |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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| nomadjack wrote: |
Because in contrast to terrorism 'regular' military action does not usually deliberately target civilians. Most military personnel (all that I've known) do everything possible to avoid killing civilians. Terrorists on the other hand make no distinction between civilian and military personnel. |
I think in current war fare Military people do in fact target civilians primarily because they have difficulty in distinguishing between them and opposition military.
Perhaps prior to Vietnam there is some merit in your observation
Israel is quite open about targeting civilians particularly in recent events in Lebanon, the reason given was "If you let Hezbollah live in your suburbs then expect to be a legitimate target"
Further, a Cruise Missile doesn't care who it kills, once deliberately targeted it just hits and kills indiscriminately.
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The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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spoljar
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Location: Lynbrook
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| Dale61 wrote: | | sherrife wrote: | | Lets keep our moral outrage under control, our nation is far bigger murderers of civilians than any terrorist group. |
You really don't like Australia, do you?
You know that you are free to leave any time you like. |
He is! Sherriff will be heading to Cuba to convince Castro to become a true socialist over a Habanos Cigar! |
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Dr Pie
Dr Pie
Joined: 08 Nov 2007
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| Frank Stone wrote: |
I think in current war fare Military people do in fact target civilians primarily because they have difficulty in distinguishing between them and opposition military.
Perhaps prior to Vietnam there is some merit in your observation
Israel is quite open about targeting civilians particularly in recent events in Lebanon, the reason given was "If you let Hezbollah live in your suburbs then expect to be a legitimate target"
Further, a Cruise Missile doesn't care who it kills, once deliberately targeted it just hits and kills indiscriminately. |
I don't think that Military people have trouble distinguishing civilian targets from opposition military. I think that the Americans believe that one of the reasons that they lost in Vietnam was that the American people did not like seeing their sons and husbands coming home in coffins. Every war the Americans have fought since has been fought in a way to minimise American deaths at the expense of enemy civilians. (Panama, 1st Gulf, Kosovo, Afghanistan, the early part of the Iraq War) America is now losing soldiers in Iraq because it is hard to occupy a hostile country without sustaining casualties.
The point about Israel/Palestine is that the leaders of both sides have ceased to recognise each others humanity. It may be justifiable, as Culprit says, to use a suicide bomber against an invading tank in Gaza but not against women and children in a Tel Aviv market. Equally, a case might be made by Israel for assassinating the Hamas leader who planned the bombing, but there is no case for bombing the apartment in which he lives and killing his family and neighbours.
Yes Sherriffe, Governments have killed more civilians than "terrorists." Governments, particularly the US Government and the former Soviet Government, are greater terrorists than any of the Palestinian, Irish, Basque, Tamil or other groups. However I still think attacks on civilians are cowardly and unacceptable, particularly in cases where the civilians are the prime target as in the case with attacks on markets, pubs or railway stations.
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Born and raised in Black and White |
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Zakal
One Game, One Club, One Jumper
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
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| I think Frank was alluding to the extreme difficulty in distinguishing between enemy combatants and innocent civilians during the Vietnam war (correct me if im wrong frank). The Vietcong made a point of blurring the lines between civilians and combatants...and so did the Americans during their war of independence for that matter. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Zakal wrote: | | I think Frank was alluding to the extreme difficulty in distinguishing between enemy combatants and innocent civilians during the Vietnam war (correct me if im wrong frank). The Vietcong made a point of blurring the lines between civilians and combatants...and so did the Americans during their war of independence for that matter. |
The days of two armies in different coloured uniforms facing each other over an empty field are loooong gone.
The Americans struggled to cope with the fact that they thought they were there to "liberate a people" but many civilians were just as happy to gut them as the soldiers were. Messed up situation.
The other thing to remember about terrorists (and that's what these suicice bombers are) is that they don't represent a geographiic area, they usually represent an ideal. There's no opposition government; no army; no one to invade. Like Hydra, cut of one head, two grow.
Japanese Kamikaze pilots in WWII, that took courage. A guy who'd take a bullet or throw himself on a grenade for his mates, that's courage. Blowing up a city and killing non-combatants to force an opposing nation to stop a war, is not courage it's pragmatic.
Walking into an area filled with innocents and exploding the C4 strapped to your chest for no other good reason than to spread terror while all the time believing that you will be rewarded in Paradise for it isn't courageous. It's weak as piss. It's saying I'd rather die and be a martyr than have to struggle on with life here on earth. The real assholes though as I said before are the ones who prime these human bombs.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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If you don't think the US deliberately targeted civilians in Vietnam, you should watch the documentary called "Winter Soldiers"
A hearing took 3 days of verbal evidence from hundreds of US soldiers who fought in Vietnam and how they systematically and deliberated killed unarmed civilians
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The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Zakal wrote: | | I think Frank was alluding to the extreme difficulty in distinguishing between enemy combatants and innocent civilians during the Vietnam war (correct me if im wrong frank). The Vietcong made a point of blurring the lines between civilians and combatants...and so did the Americans during their war of independence for that matter. |
The days of two armies in different coloured uniforms facing each other over an empty field are loooong gone.
The Americans struggled to cope with the fact that they thought they were there to "liberate a people" but many civilians were just as happy to gut them as the soldiers were. Messed up situation.
The other thing to remember about terrorists (and that's what these suicice bombers are) is that they don't represent a geographiic area, they usually represent an ideal. There's no opposition government; no army; no one to invade. Like Hydra, cut of one head, two grow.
Japanese Kamikaze pilots in WWII, that took courage. A guy who'd take a bullet or throw himself on a grenade for his mates, that's courage. Blowing up a city and killing non-combatants to force an opposing nation to stop a war, is not courage it's pragmatic.
Walking into an area filled with innocents and exploding the C4 strapped to your chest for no other good reason than to spread terror while all the time believing that you will be rewarded in Paradise for it isn't courageous. It's weak as piss. It's saying I'd rather die and be a martyr than have to struggle on with life here on earth. The real assholes though as I said before are the ones who prime these human bombs. |
Great post Stui.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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