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Zakal
One Game, One Club, One Jumper
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
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Im actually interested to see the real-world effects of an apology following this discussion.
Will it have the desired effect of healing old wounds so we can all be more receptive of changes for good?
Will it simply have no effect?
Chain reaction of monetary liability claims as some against apology suggest?
Or will an apology simply be used by the government as a cop-out of fixing the real issues like living conditions and the like?....kind of like the "well we've said sorry now, what more do you want?" |
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joffa corfe
PREMIERS 2010
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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| Zakal wrote: | Im actually interested to see the real-world effects of an apology following this discussion.
Will it have the desired effect of healing old wounds so we can all be more receptive of changes for good?
Will it simply have no effect?
Chain reaction of monetary liability claims as some against apology suggest?
Or will an apology simply be used by the government as a cop-out of fixing the real issues like living conditions and the like?....kind of like the "well we've said sorry now, what more do you want?" |
I have strong links within the indigenous community, The apology will be something of a relief, a moment in time when all of us can at long last walk forward, It will be a time to acknowledge our wrongs against the indigenous race, it will be very much a moment when we can all stand together and call ourselves Australian. Potentially it could be the most historic moment in Australian Politics.
Its long overdue. As a nation it will be telling the world that we've grown up, we've made mistakes. As a carer of two beautiful indigenous boys it will be a moment not to forget, The apology removes whatever racism is left in this country although too young to understand, it will be a message to my the two boys and all other indigenous people in Australia that we are now one. We are truly united..we at long last have become a nation of people brave enough to stand up and admit our wrongs and move forward.
Never underestimate what the kindest word in our language can achieve it takes little effort if it's genuine and from the heart it's the most powerful word in world langauge..SORRY!
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Football is Greatness
http://youtu.be/tJwoKbPOsQE |
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Piethagoras' Theorem 
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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Can not disagree with that Joff, well said.
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Formally frankiboy and FrankieGoesToCollingwood. |
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Zakal
One Game, One Club, One Jumper
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
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| joffa corfe wrote: | | Zakal wrote: | Im actually interested to see the real-world effects of an apology following this discussion.
Will it have the desired effect of healing old wounds so we can all be more receptive of changes for good?
Will it simply have no effect?
Chain reaction of monetary liability claims as some against apology suggest?
Or will an apology simply be used by the government as a cop-out of fixing the real issues like living conditions and the like?....kind of like the "well we've said sorry now, what more do you want?" |
I have strong links within the indigenous community, The apology will be something of a relief, a moment in time when all of us can at long last walk forward, It will be a time to acknowledge our wrongs against the indigenous race, it will be very much a moment when we can all stand together and call ourselves Australian. Potentially it could be the most historic moment in Australian Politics.
Its long overdue. As a nation it will be telling the world that we've grown up, we've made mistakes. As a carer of two beautiful indigenous boys it will be a moment not to forget, The apology removes whatever racism is left in this country although too young to understand, it will be a message to my the two boys and all other indigenous people in Australia that we are now one. We are truly united..we at long last have become a nation of people brave enough to stand up and admit our wrongs and move forward.
Never underestimate what the kindest word in our language can achieve it takes little effort if it's genuine and from the heart it's the most powerful word in world langauge..SORRY! |
I actually think thats a pretty optimistic outcome. Most of all on the issue of racism in the country. Its not going to put an end to the racism that still lingers, and i find it hard to imagine any racist suddenly deciding to change their mind because the government has said sorry. In fact, as i said earlier, i think its distinctly possible to have the opposite effect amongst these people.
Theres also those people who dont oppose a governmental apology for some racist ulterior motive, and while openly acknowledge and lament the actions of previous governments, dont like idea of being told its "their" fault, "their" wrongs and "their" mistakes all the time. You know the old adage about the sins of the father being visited upon the son. In that respect it will perhaps be more of a government apology on behalf of itself...as the government, rather than one on behalf of the currently living Australian populace.
Just running off on that tangent for a moment:
I dont think Rudd has gone into too much detail (though correct me if wrong) as to the form the apology will take. The cynical part of me half expects one in the form of the classic medical-negligence, liability denying "expression of regret." A piece of legal fiction concocted to enable doctors to apologies for nicking arteries and nerves, without the actual liability ramifications of an admission of guilt.
I think the form of the apology is going to have a fairly significant impact on what results we can expect from it. |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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The consultation process regarding the wording (in your words "the form") has not been completed yet.
Jenny Macklin said today that it would be completed shortly.
See story below.
________________________________________________________________
Monday January 28, 03:51 PM
Govt indigenous apology
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd is widely tipped to offer the formal apology when the new parliament convenes for the first time on February 12.
Indigenous Affairs Minister Jenny Macklin would not commit to a specific date, saying the government was still consulting and wanted to get it right.
"We do want to make the apology as early as possible in the new parliament, but we want to complete the consultations first," Ms Macklin told reporters in Melbourne.
Ms Macklin has been consulting with indigenous leaders about the apology since mid-December.
The Stolen Generations Alliance - one of the key groups involved in consultations with Ms Macklin - said it expected an announcement "any day now" on the timing of the apology.
Co-chair Christine King acknowledged some indigenous people want more time for further consultations but said her group was keen for it to take place soon.
"Many of us didn't think this moment would come in our lifetimes," Ms King said.
"The apology is about healing for us, but I speak to many non-Indigenous Australians who say it's also important for them because what happened to stolen generation is part of the Australian story.
"There is a sense of relief that Australia will finally take this step that has been so long in coming."
Co-chair of the National Sorry Day Committee Helen Moran said the apology would be the crucial first step in the path to reconciliation and criticised the Howard government for whipping up fear about it.
"If you look at the Howard government's program of directing and inciting fear into the Australian public over the last 11 years in relation to the apology, it's not surprising at all that there is a lack of understanding of what this exactly entails and what it means," she told Sky News.
When Ms Macklin began her consultations with indigenous leaders, she was urged not to rush the apology.
Social Justice Commissioner Tom Calma said at the time: "The stakes are too high to get it wrong by rushing it through, or not allowing the conversation for reconciliation to take place".
Mr Calma said Sorry Day in May could be an ideal time.
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The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Too many Aboriginals appear to have a defeatist attitude and a reluctance to accept responsibility, preferring to blame all their ills on the "white man". |
This is precisely the kind of bullshit comment that demonstrates how shallow and superficial your supposed compassion and understanding is on this issue Stui. You talk about responsibility and blame shifting on behalf of Aboriginals in one breath and then do your best to deny that Australia as a nation is at all responsible for the situation many indigenous Australians find themselves in today. Prefer to blame all their ills on the 'white man'...FFS |
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Proud Pies 
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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| Frank Stone wrote: | The consultation process regarding the wording (in your words "the form") has not been completed yet.
Jenny Macklin said today that it would be completed shortly.
See story below.
________________________________________________________________
Monday January 28, 03:51 PM
Govt indigenous apology
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd is widely tipped to offer the formal apology when the new parliament convenes for the first time on February 12.
Indigenous Affairs Minister Jenny Macklin would not commit to a specific date, saying the government was still consulting and wanted to get it right.
"We do want to make the apology as early as possible in the new parliament, but we want to complete the consultations first," Ms Macklin told reporters in Melbourne.
Ms Macklin has been consulting with indigenous leaders about the apology since mid-December.
The Stolen Generations Alliance - one of the key groups involved in consultations with Ms Macklin - said it expected an announcement "any day now" on the timing of the apology.
Co-chair Christine King acknowledged some indigenous people want more time for further consultations but said her group was keen for it to take place soon.
"Many of us didn't think this moment would come in our lifetimes," Ms King said.
"The apology is about healing for us, but I speak to many non-Indigenous Australians who say it's also important for them because what happened to stolen generation is part of the Australian story.
"There is a sense of relief that Australia will finally take this step that has been so long in coming."
Co-chair of the National Sorry Day Committee Helen Moran said the apology would be the crucial first step in the path to reconciliation and criticised the Howard government for whipping up fear about it.
"If you look at the Howard government's program of directing and inciting fear into the Australian public over the last 11 years in relation to the apology, it's not surprising at all that there is a lack of understanding of what this exactly entails and what it means," she told Sky News.
When Ms Macklin began her consultations with indigenous leaders, she was urged not to rush the apology.
Social Justice Commissioner Tom Calma said at the time: "The stakes are too high to get it wrong by rushing it through, or not allowing the conversation for reconciliation to take place".
Mr Calma said Sorry Day in May could be an ideal time. |
without being labelled racist for not knowing....i have highlighted in bold above what my question relates to:
a. Is the apology just for the stolen generation?
b. Is the apology for all injustices over the past 200 years?
c. Is the apology for the Colonisation of this country?
d. Is the apology for all of the above?
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| nomadjack wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Too many Aboriginals appear to have a defeatist attitude and a reluctance to accept responsibility, preferring to blame all their ills on the "white man". |
This is precisely the kind of bullshit comment that demonstrates how shallow and superficial your supposed compassion and understanding is on this issue Stui. You talk about responsibility and blame shifting on behalf of Aboriginals in one breath and then do your best to deny that Australia as a nation is at all responsible for the situation many indigenous Australians find themselves in today. Prefer to blame all their ills on the 'white man'...FFS |
Mate, I don't deny responsibility and I'm not trying to to turn it backwards. I'm not labelling all aboriginals, I said "too many"
What I described is a side effect of a culture of poverty/welfare.
I beleieve what i posted above, and that is not intended to deflect blame, but to make the point that there are things that need to be put in place before Aborginal welfare can really move forward. Have a think for a second and tell me that that description doesn't resonate with you, that you don't know people who fit that description.
I would really like to catch up with you for a beer sometime and let you give me your perspective face to face. I think if you could look me in the eyes, you may view my words somewhat differently.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Why? That's just an academic question. |
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sherrife 
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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@ Frank & Spoljar
You guys have come to a reasonable conclusion, but I think Frank's point is valid, that saying sorry and acting with genuine good will are not difficult to do at the same time. In fact, I would argue that parliament will NEVER act to remedy the tragic situation if they don't begin by apologising; because any government that takes the issue seriously will bloody well begin by doing the easiest and cheapest thing; apologise.
I'm sorta with spoljar, I'm very sceptical of Rudd's sincerity when it comes to this issue. How much additional funding goes into programs designed in direct consultation with Indigenous people... I'll wager to say very little. It's all an act of PR to get the inner-city liberals onside; to show them how left-wing he really is. The apology will be just like Rudd signing Kyoto, all flourish, no substance.
Stui mate, I would like to know how much time you've spent living with Indigenous people, and actually seeking answers directly from their mouths. Or at least how much time have you spent reading about or studying Indigenous issues, as opposed to getting your ideas fully packaged directly from the pens of the right-wing f@#kers at the Herald Sun. Your ideas just sound so Andrew Boltish... Sure, Indigenous people sit at home blaming the whiteman for their problems. FFS.
Do you really think human lives can be boiled down to that (very Herald Sun'esque) stereotype? Can you not try to imagine that there are infinite numbers of ways of being 'Indigenous', and that the majority are living in urban centres, doing whatever it is that other people do?
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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Zakal
One Game, One Club, One Jumper
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
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| Proud Pies wrote: |
without being labelled racist for not knowing....i have highlighted in bold above what my question relates to:
a. Is the apology just for the stolen generation?
b. Is the apology for all injustices over the past 200 years?
c. Is the apology for the Colonisation of this country?
d. Is the apology for all of the above? |
Yeah this is something ive been curious about too, because as Sheriffe points out, in typical Rudd fashion this another 'promise' made with flourish without much stipulation as to substance. "we will say sorry!" "for what mr Rudd?"..."ahm...anything John Howard wouldn't say sorry for".
Sounds great when theres a worm watching, but it doesnt really do a hell of a lot to fill us in on those questions. Although maybe im just ignorant because i love the herald sun so much....that Mike Sheahan, he's such a champ.  |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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| Zakal wrote: | | Proud Pies wrote: |
without being labelled racist for not knowing....i have highlighted in bold above what my question relates to:
a. Is the apology just for the stolen generation?
b. Is the apology for all injustices over the past 200 years?
c. Is the apology for the Colonisation of this country?
d. Is the apology for all of the above? |
Yeah this is something ive been curious about too, because as Sheriffe points out, in typical Rudd fashion this another 'promise' made with flourish without much stipulation as to substance. "we will say sorry!" "for what mr Rudd?"..."ahm...anything John Howard wouldn't say sorry for".
Sounds great when theres a worm watching, but it doesnt really do a hell of a lot to fill us in on those questions. Although maybe im just ignorant because i love the herald sun so much....that Mike Sheahan, he's such a champ. |
Why not do your own independent research?
Google is your friend
_________________
The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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Zakal
One Game, One Club, One Jumper
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
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cheers for that nomad.
| Quote: | He also said individual Australians have the right to oppose the move, saying the apology was not coming from the non-indigenous citizens.
"We'll be making it clear that we'll be speaking in the Government's name," he said.
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I thought that would be the case. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how those being apologised to receive it, given that the substance and wording dont appear finalised (at least publicly) as yet. |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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The issue of saying sorry will amount to dollars in compensation is why the country will never move forward as one. The other line is why should I say sorry for what people did in the past. These arguments are always the beat up of the right wing of our society. The fear factor argument I call it. We have enjoyed making money from the land for multiple decades and even more now with the mining boom and we have given the blacks sweat FA for it.
How many aborigines does everyone think are actually alive and living in this country? There are around half a million and that is decreasing as years pass. That is around 2.5% of the population. Worse case scenario we give them a million dollars each, that is half a billion dollars unless my maths is screwed. Now proportion that to GDP. We are talking a drop in the ocean and that is giving them a million each which would rarely be the payout. If we took 10% of the military budget we have spent on our war efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan and put that into the compensation fund for the aborigines to draw from I doubt if the fund would run out of dollars.
Someone mentioned about the USA and the Indians (red ones). They have a treaty and have a system in place. We have no treaty and no system.
The rednecks bring up that a black man raped a child so we have military intervention. White man has been doing it for years yet we do not have the military involved just the police.
What is even more amusing is most whites would not know what an Aboriginal if they ran into one.
I am against them burning the flag, but understand the frustration.
We all should be sorry for the ignorance of generations of whites as its still going. |
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It's also quite clearly stated in today's Age.