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spoljar 
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Location: Lynbrook
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| Frank Stone wrote: | | spoljar wrote: | | Frank Stone wrote: | | Proud Pies wrote: |
what the hell was wrong with these questions? |
IMO They are based on racial ignorance |
Hmm, it appears to be very difficult to debate any topic regarding any race without people either implying or calling you a racist. |
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck .................... |
OK OK Frank, I am a racist because I dont believe an apology will benefit the indigenous community in any way, shape or form.
Unfortunately, I am a little more in favour of more practical solutions, particularly control of alcohol and drugs in indigenous communities and providing the same levels of education for their youth that whites receive. Unfortunately I believe those things in particular would actually change the current course and direction of the aboriginal community rather than some lame arse apology.
Words mean nothing, actions do! |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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| Who are you to decide that words mean nothing Spoljar? That's up to the person seeking the apology to decide not you. An apology and practical remedies are not mutually exclusive. Both can be done at the same time. |
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spoljar
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Location: Lynbrook
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| nomadjack wrote: | | Who are you to decide that words mean nothing Spoljar? That's up to the person seeking the apology to decide not you. An apology and practical remedies are not mutually exclusive. Both can be done at the same time. |
I am nobody in the context of things, its just my opinion Nomad. I just believe that for all the apologies that have been made in the world to the American Indians, Maories, Jews, Aussie POW's etc etc etc what has changed in the world for the people that have been apologised to? |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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| spoljar wrote: | | nomadjack wrote: | | Who are you to decide that words mean nothing Spoljar? That's up to the person seeking the apology to decide not you. An apology and practical remedies are not mutually exclusive. Both can be done at the same time. |
I am nobody in the context of things, its just my opinion Nomad. I just believe that for all the apologies that have been made in the world to the American Indians, Maories, Jews, Aussie POW's etc etc etc what has changed in the world for the people that have been apologised to? |
Not questioning your right to an opinion Spoljar, just questioning whether or not you are in a position to judge whether or not an apology is meaningful to the recipient. Ask any Holocaust survivor if they would have preferred that post-war German governments refuse to acknowledge what took place. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Hmmmm. You know Nomad, I think we are actually in the same book and chapter and very close to the same page.
| Quote: | Of course nobody is going to leave as a result of people admitting that 'invasion' is an accurate description of what occurred. It's also not going to solve all the practical problems associated with Aboriginal disadvantage. Neither is a formal apology. What it will do though is demonstrate to indigenous Australians that we are finally mature and honest enough as a nation to admit our past failings rather than attempt to gloss over them.
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Agreed.
| Quote: | It's interesting that you raise psychology because I find your choice of language interesting. You use benign words and terms like 'discover', 'previously unexplored lands', and 'encountered scattered tribes of nomadic stone age hunter/gatherers.' which either consciously or subconsciously underplay the extent of conflict or dispossession. Instead, the arrival of whites sounds like quite an exciting adventure!
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Unconscious maybe. I wasn't trying to underplay it or make it sound like an adventure. The psychology reference is purely about the impact to a person's life when they continually relive in their own mind past injustices.
| Quote: | You could describe it from the Aboriginal perspective quite differently though: Whitemen came with guns, shot our men, raped our women, stole our children, forced us of our tribal lands, forced us to work for no pay, destroyed our society with disease, and refused to recognize us as human.
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You certainly could describe it that way. Accurately.
| Quote: | | Yes we can change history. This is largely what this argument is about. We can change it by finally recognizing and acknowledging the truth rather than accepting a glossed over version written solely from the perspective of the invader. |
Agreed, from the point of view that history is merely propaganda written by the victors. It will not change what happened, but Australian History should be taught from both perspectives not just one.
My Great, Great Grandfather came to this country in chains. Others came here as refugees from wars in Europe, Asia and Africa and even more migrated here by choice. I personally think it's a bloody great country and that it's not right that any particular group should be marginalised to the extent that many Aboriginal communities are, let alone the original inhabitants.
The Country that I believe we are, is a country where everyone is treated equally regardless of their race or religion. If some groups need to be assisted to enable them to get there, then lets do it.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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spoljar
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Location: Lynbrook
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| nomadjack wrote: | | spoljar wrote: | | nomadjack wrote: | | Who are you to decide that words mean nothing Spoljar? That's up to the person seeking the apology to decide not you. An apology and practical remedies are not mutually exclusive. Both can be done at the same time. |
I am nobody in the context of things, its just my opinion Nomad. I just believe that for all the apologies that have been made in the world to the American Indians, Maories, Jews, Aussie POW's etc etc etc what has changed in the world for the people that have been apologised to? |
Not questioning your right to an opinion Spoljar, just questioning whether or not you are in a position to judge whether or not an apology is meaningful to the recipient. Ask any Holocaust survivor if they would have preferred that post-war German governments refuse to acknowledge what took place. |
Fair enough Mate. At the end of the day, in 200 years, the aboriginals haven't received an apology and still live in third world conditions.
I am yet to be convinced through any government policies that the third world conditions will change in any way shape or form as the result of an apology. I have also yet to see from the aboriginal community that they will necessarily accept an apology (I am happy to be corrected on this one if someone can provide an article to show this or something similar)
If I was to pick the two, apology vs action, I would much rather see the schools built etc, rather than an apology and than nothing! |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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So you still believe we can't do both, that's odd!
_________________
The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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Proud Pies 
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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| Frank Stone wrote: | | Proud Pies wrote: |
what the hell was wrong with these questions? |
IMO They are based on racial ignorance |
ahhhhhhh no, if you don't ask the questions, then you remain ignorant.
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Y'know Spoljar, I'm coming around to the view that action won't work without the apology. Too many Aboriginals appear to have a defeatist attitude and a reluctance to accept responsibility, preferring to blame all their ills on the "white man".
If making an apology/treaty/formal acknowledgement of past wrongs or whatever helps to clear some obstacles out of the path of action, then it's totally worth it.
If Aboriginal kids can go to school knowing that they have the same opportunity as every other Australian to get an education and earn themseleves a decent lifestyle rather than sniffing petrol, prostituting themselves and expecting handouts simply because they believe that's all they can look forward to.
Basically, lets kill the blame game and lets move forward.
Edit.
BTW Nomad, in case there's any doubt, I'm not having a dig at you here.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
Last edited by stui magpie on Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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spoljar
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Location: Lynbrook
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| Frank Stone wrote: | | So you still believe we can't do both, that's odd! |
Mate, in 200 years, we haven't even been able to do one, what would suggest we can do both all of a sudden? In short, looking at govt policies, the aboriginal community and the entire community as a whole, I would say no.
I would rather see first and foremost those third world conditions improved on than an apology rather than an apology and than nothing. |
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spoljar
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Location: Lynbrook
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Y'know Spoljar, I'm coming around to the view that action won't work without the apology. Too many Aboriginals appear to have a defeatist attitude and a reluctance to accept responsibility, preferring to blame all their ills on the "white man". |
Stui, if its as simple as an apology, I am all for it.
I have just got the feeling that in 3 years time, we will be again talking about the 3rd world conditions that aboriginals live in just before the next election. |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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| spoljar wrote: | | Frank Stone wrote: | | So you still believe we can't do both, that's odd! |
Mate, in 200 years, we haven't even been able to do one, what would suggest we can do both all of a sudden? In short, looking at govt policies, the aboriginal community and the entire community as a whole, I would say no.
I would rather see first and foremost those third world conditions improved on than an apology rather than an apology and than nothing. |
What is so frightening to you, if we apologise?
_________________
The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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spoljar
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Location: Lynbrook
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| Frank Stone wrote: | | What is so frightening to you, if we apologise? |
For me personally Frank, and in all honesty, absolutely nothing. It will not effect me one bit day to day as I will just get on with my life.
I guess I was brought up that actions rather than words mean more. Its just the philosophy that I was built on and its how I run my business and run my life.
Therefore if its just as simple as an apology, lets go for it. The majority of the population, I would imagine will just get on with life. What happens with the aboriginal community from there, is anyones guess. I just suspect though, not a lot without some major practical solutions attached to the apology. |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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| spoljar wrote: | | Frank Stone wrote: | | What is so frightening to you, if we apologise? |
For me personally Frank, and in all honesty, absolutely nothing. It will not effect me one bit day to day as I will just get on with my life.
I guess I was brought up that actions rather than words mean more. Its just the philosophy that I was built on and its how I run my business and run my life.
Therefore if its just as simple as an apology, lets go for it. The majority of the population, I would imagine will just get on with life. What happens with the aboriginal community from there, is anyones guess. I just suspect though, not a lot without some major practical solutions attached to the apology. |
That's all fine.
But what about this;
If the indigenous peoples want an apology so that they can build on that and grow, then why shouldn't we adhere to their wishes.
Additionally, as a mature nation, we should be strong enough to acknowledge our past wrongs and let all others know that we will put those wrongs right.
Its about dialog and understanding, it doesn't prevent us from doing all those other things, which you correctly point out, should be done.
_________________
The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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spoljar
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Location: Lynbrook
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| Frank Stone wrote: | | spoljar wrote: | | Frank Stone wrote: | | What is so frightening to you, if we apologise? |
For me personally Frank, and in all honesty, absolutely nothing. It will not effect me one bit day to day as I will just get on with my life.
I guess I was brought up that actions rather than words mean more. Its just the philosophy that I was built on and its how I run my business and run my life.
Therefore if its just as simple as an apology, lets go for it. The majority of the population, I would imagine will just get on with life. What happens with the aboriginal community from there, is anyones guess. I just suspect though, not a lot without some major practical solutions attached to the apology. |
That's all fine.
But what about this;
If the indigenous peoples want an apology so that they can build on that and grow, then why shouldn't we adhere to their wishes.
Additionally, as a mature nation, we should be strong enough to acknowledge our past wrongs and let all others know that we will put those wrongs right.
Its about dialog and understanding, it doesn't prevent us from doing all those other things, which you correctly point out, should be done. |
Fair enough Mate. My understanding is that an apology is coming up shortly from the Rudd government if I am not mistaken. It will be interesting to see what happens after that (living conditions, education etc) |
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