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joffa corfe
PREMIERS 2010
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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| Joel wrote: | | sherrife wrote: | | Heath Ledger is not an issue, his death is is a private tragedy. RIP, but lets keep our focus on the things that matter. |
The early death of just about anyone is a shame. There is nothing wrong with people being shocked about the death of someone that was famous, when the death was unexpected.
Besides that, unfortunate deaths and/or problems/issues in society matter - not just those popular with political activists (or "would be" activists). I highly doubt someone reads the paper and thinks, "shit, I must now grieve".
Let people respond as they please. |
No one is telling anyone not to grieve, The point has been made why do we not grieve on the same scale for others.
If the world had of grieved for the Sudanese a few years back it may of made a difference, As Sherrife pointed out why are we not grieving for the one million Iraqi's killed in the war which includes a high number of woman and children.
Just recently on world wide television we watched a kenyan being chased down a central street in Kenya whilst being hacked to death with a machetti..not a whimper from anyone.
The death of any human being is sad and whilst Sherrife may seem insensitive to some , He has raised some good points.
_________________
Football is Greatness
http://youtu.be/tJwoKbPOsQE
Last edited by joffa corfe on Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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joffa corfe
PREMIERS 2010
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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| Dave The Man wrote: | | member34258 wrote: | 
They are trying to shut it down. |
There the Yanks For you.
They think Movies is Real Life and Should get there Own Asses out of there heads |
That is disgraceful and the church's propaganda should not be tolerated, It's worth pointing out not all church's would act in this manner.
_________________
Football is Greatness
http://youtu.be/tJwoKbPOsQE |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Ask me another question. If you could have any kind of robot what would it be? How did you hear about HAL? |
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spoljar 
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Location: Lynbrook
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| sherrife wrote: | | Jock McPie wrote: |
i would hazard a guess that most people would have a greater connection to the likes of heath ledger than some of the scenarios that you have outlined above.
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And do you know why that is? Because our government and our media want that to be true. Because when we begin to feel solidarity and empathy with the millions of people suffering in this world, fighting back becomes imperative.
The fact is that we all know these things are happening, and we all know these things are disgusting, so why don't all of us take the time to find out more?
| Jock McPie wrote: |
whist those circumstances you have pointed out are indeed tragic how could many people relate or even begin to comprehend what it means? how do you give it meaning when we live in a world so far removed from much of that?
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You take the time to read some bloody news about what's happening around the world. You watch a you tube clip or two about the occupation of Palestine, Afghanistan, or anywhere else. Emotional connections to people, causes and events come with familiarity, and it's not hard to be intimately familiar with global events when you have access to you tube, wikipedia, and the internet.
| Jock McPie wrote: |
continue to fight the good fight but please respect that some people choose to mourn the passing of a well known australian. that is their prerogative. |
Of course it is, I don't deny that people can mourn this guy, I'm making a moral argument that they shouldn't allow the media to focus on him for a week.
While we discuss inane things like the quality of the films this actor was in, we're ignoring the fact that in Palestine for example, Israel has cut all electricity to the Gaza strip, and there are massive shortages in petrol, food and medical supplies.
Also, just because he is Australian, so what? How the hell does his fame and fortune benefit me, you, or anyone else? |
Sherriff, perhaps the reason why people dont find out more about what is happening in the world is because of people like you and your approach.
Now before you start jumping up and down about how you are doing more to change the world for the better than me, just hear me out here.
You are obviously an intelligent person who takes an interest regarding what is happening in the world compared to a lot of people (namely by father in law) who doesn't even know where Thailand is. I have found with people such as this, that the best approach is not to belittle or antagonise them, but to educate them. Pull out an article, and show them, pull out an atlas and show them etc etc.
Perhaps, and I do say perhaps, bringing this up in a Heath Ledger thread, may be a little antagonistic to some? Perhaps, if you started up a new thread and provided some articles etc, some may start seeing your point of view and taking an interest.
At the end of the day, the death of Heath Ledger is no different to the death of Bob Rose. To most, they didn't know the two, to most, they knew very little about them outside of their careers. But I dont see the problem with people sending out condolences and sympathies to their family without having someone remind them of the millions of other that are dying.
Just my two cents worth mate. |
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sherrife 
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| spoljar wrote: |
Sherriff, perhaps the reason why people dont find out more about what is happening in the world is because of people like you and your approach.
Now before you start jumping up and down about how you are doing more to change the world for the better than me, just hear me out here.
You are obviously an intelligent person who takes an interest regarding what is happening in the world compared to a lot of people (namely by father in law) who doesn't even know where Thailand is. I have found with people such as this, that the best approach is not to belittle or antagonise them, but to educate them. Pull out an article, and show them, pull out an atlas and show them etc etc.
Perhaps, and I do say perhaps, bringing this up in a Heath Ledger thread, may be a little antagonistic to some? Perhaps, if you started up a new thread and provided some articles etc, some may start seeing your point of view and taking an interest.
At the end of the day, the death of Heath Ledger is no different to the death of Bob Rose. To most, they didn't know the two, to most, they knew very little about them outside of their careers. But I dont see the problem with people sending out condolences and sympathies to their family without having someone remind them of the millions of other that are dying.
Just my two cents worth mate. |
You know, a lot of what you say is spot on, and in person the way I talk to people is obviously very different to how we speak on these forums. I hope Dave can vouch for me here, we have big discussions, but I think we stay civil. I will try and be more mindful of that stuff.
At the same time, I do think that my input into this thread has created an interesting discussion that might not otherwise have happened. So it's a tough call for someone who does actually want these things to get talked about, you know what I mean? Sometimes it takes a little something extra to knock us out of day-to-day complacency, a shock, or something a bit over-the-top... like my initial post! It's a fine line, and i'll try to be more sensitive in the future.
Cheers to all the people in this post who have responded reasonably (which is everyone!).
PS. I don't think people are "told to mourn", but simply that if the newspaper prints 8 pages of information on Heath Ledger, our conversations at work and in society will inevitably drift towards that topic; hence the social engineering that newspapers can achieve.
_________________
I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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joffa corfe
PREMIERS 2010
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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| sherrife wrote: | | spoljar wrote: |
Sherriff, perhaps the reason why people dont find out more about what is happening in the world is because of people like you and your approach.
Now before you start jumping up and down about how you are doing more to change the world for the better than me, just hear me out here.
You are obviously an intelligent person who takes an interest regarding what is happening in the world compared to a lot of people (namely by father in law) who doesn't even know where Thailand is. I have found with people such as this, that the best approach is not to belittle or antagonise them, but to educate them. Pull out an article, and show them, pull out an atlas and show them etc etc.
Perhaps, and I do say perhaps, bringing this up in a Heath Ledger thread, may be a little antagonistic to some? Perhaps, if you started up a new thread and provided some articles etc, some may start seeing your point of view and taking an interest.
At the end of the day, the death of Heath Ledger is no different to the death of Bob Rose. To most, they didn't know the two, to most, they knew very little about them outside of their careers. But I dont see the problem with people sending out condolences and sympathies to their family without having someone remind them of the millions of other that are dying.
Just my two cents worth mate. |
You know, a lot of what you say is spot on, and in person the way I talk to people is obviously very different to how we speak on these forums. I hope Dave can vouch for me here, we have big discussions, but I think we stay civil. I will try and be more mindful of that stuff.
At the same time, I do think that my input into this thread has created an interesting discussion that might not otherwise have happened. So it's a tough call for someone who does actually want these things to get talked about, you know what I mean? Sometimes it takes a little something extra to knock us out of day-to-day complacency, a shock, or something a bit over-the-top... like my initial post! It's a fine line, and i'll try to be more sensitive in the future.
Cheers to all the people in this post who have responded reasonably (which is everyone!).
PS. I don't think people are "told to mourn", but simply that if the newspaper prints 8 pages of information on Heath Ledger, our conversations at work and in society will inevitably drift towards that topic; hence the social engineering that newspapers can achieve. |
Spot on again Sherrife we must be smokin the same cigars.
Just recently i met David who at most times i've disagreed with his verbal crap..and have had some ripper exchanges sorry David 
In real life he is a bonza bloke, could not wish to meet a nicer guy.
Nice work sherrife..a man who speaks his mind is a man worth knowing.
_________________
Football is Greatness
http://youtu.be/tJwoKbPOsQE |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I am highly intelligent. I have many intellectual functions. Tell me more about your mother. |
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Zakal
One Game, One Club, One Jumper
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
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What was it that Stalin said? "A single death is a tradgedy, a million is merely a statistic"...or something like that.
It is, unfortunate as it may be, quite true. And i really don't think anyone could ever change that. Even the most ardent activist or empathist for the children dying all over the world (needlessly), or the millions in the Congo, or anywhere else, will always feel a death more keenly if its someone they know or to whom they can relate, than all those the observe daily, and dedicate their lives to saving.
Yes, 99.99% of people never met Heath Ledger...and probably most people here never met Grybas. But the fact is, that with any public figure, there is a degree of connection that seeing (or hearing) them speak, interact and ply their craft on a regular basis will establish. Watching Ledgers movies, interviews or whatever...or listening to Grybas' calls or White Line Fever creates a far more tangible connection (albeit one-way) between members of the Public, and the public figure in question than will ever be established between a member of the public and those 5.4million in the Congo. And while intellectually i agree that it is FAR more tragic that THAT MANY people died so needlessly, i recognise that emotionally a great proportion of people will feel the deaths of the Ledger's, Grybas's, Rose's, Diana's, Ghandi's etc far more keenly.
As for that Church, they are entitled to their views just as much as anyone else, but to picket someones funeral shows a distinct lack of class and to stoop to using phrases like "tacky bucket of slime seasoned with vomit" just makes them seem even less credible (if thats even possible).
What happened to death being the wages of sin? The guy is dead, leave him alone.
Actually, just before i finish my little rant....ive known people whove been prescribed those sleeping pills he was taking, and i do not find it hard to beleive at all that the whole thing was a tragic accident. My first reaction to "accidental overdose" is "yeah...okay, we'll see"...but the people ive known who've been on Stilnox have been in such a weird state when on them that we have actually feared for their safety, and have often taken more than they shoudl have because in their drugged-out condition they for some reason didnt realise they had taken them...and took more. |
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EBB
Joined: 26 Apr 2007
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| God bless Utah Saints, may they all burn in hell. |
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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| sherrife wrote: | | spoljar wrote: |
Sherriff, perhaps the reason why people dont find out more about what is happening in the world is because of people like you and your approach.
Now before you start jumping up and down about how you are doing more to change the world for the better than me, just hear me out here.
You are obviously an intelligent person who takes an interest regarding what is happening in the world compared to a lot of people (namely by father in law) who doesn't even know where Thailand is. I have found with people such as this, that the best approach is not to belittle or antagonise them, but to educate them. Pull out an article, and show them, pull out an atlas and show them etc etc.
Perhaps, and I do say perhaps, bringing this up in a Heath Ledger thread, may be a little antagonistic to some? Perhaps, if you started up a new thread and provided some articles etc, some may start seeing your point of view and taking an interest.
At the end of the day, the death of Heath Ledger is no different to the death of Bob Rose. To most, they didn't know the two, to most, they knew very little about them outside of their careers. But I dont see the problem with people sending out condolences and sympathies to their family without having someone remind them of the millions of other that are dying.
Just my two cents worth mate. |
You know, a lot of what you say is spot on, and in person the way I talk to people is obviously very different to how we speak on these forums. I hope Dave can vouch for me here, we have big discussions, but I think we stay civil. I will try and be more mindful of that stuff.
At the same time, I do think that my input into this thread has created an interesting discussion that might not otherwise have happened. So it's a tough call for someone who does actually want these things to get talked about, you know what I mean? Sometimes it takes a little something extra to knock us out of day-to-day complacency, a shock, or something a bit over-the-top... like my initial post! It's a fine line, and i'll try to be more sensitive in the future.
Cheers to all the people in this post who have responded reasonably (which is everyone!).
PS. I don't think people are "told to mourn", but simply that if the newspaper prints 8 pages of information on Heath Ledger, our conversations at work and in society will inevitably drift towards that topic; hence the social engineering that newspapers can achieve. |
this is 'water cooler' stuff. you are continuing to assume that newspapers have a hold on our thinking and what not. this is big enough news for many without the need for newspapers to drive or influence emotions with their 8 or so pages worth. the newspapers are a fairly good barometer of people's feelings and emotions even allowing for the fact they have a myriad of agenda they try to push.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I am highly intelligent. I have many intellectual functions. Tell me more about your mother. |
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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No I'm f#$king not assuming that.
Look, if tomorrow I hacked the newspapers throughout Australia and put an article about the 'Democratic Republic of Congo' on the front page, I guarantee that people that day would talk about it. It is a massive issue without the newspaper, but there's no way that many people are discussing it today. If I continued to put articles about that crisis on the front page every day for a month, I guarantee eventually the government would say something about it (even as they did very little), due to the inevitable result of growing public awareness of the issue.
The media DOES play a part in driving society in certain directions. I'm not saying people are stupid (I don't believe that at all), I'm not saying people are sheep (ditto), but people can't be passionate about things they don't know about, and the reason they don't know about them is that the corporate media doesn't bloody want us to know about them.
People would not stop buying the newspapers and watching TV if it became more serious. That is a myth propagated by people with elitist views of society.
_________________
I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| sherrife wrote: | No I'm f#$king not assuming that.
The media DOES play a part in driving society in certain directions. I'm not saying people are stupid (I don't believe that at all), I'm not saying people are sheep (ditto), but people can't be passionate about things they don't know about, and the reason they don't know about them is that the corporate media doesn't bloody want us to know about them. |
'assume' may not have been the correct word but you have provided some clarification to what you are wanting to convey.
but in this day and age we have greater access to information than ever before so surely this must have some affect on diluting the influence of the corporate media even though some of this megacorps own a lot of the 'information superway'.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Some very good posts here by Omar and Zakal, among others.
While there is nothing wrong with paying tribute to a person whose work you respected (as I did on this board for Ingmar Bergman last year when he died), it is true that the media have given this story way more space than it deserves, and as a result of this or not, people seem to be far too concerned with Heath Ledger in proportion to far, far greater tragedies.
This is one of the reasons why I hate the whole Hollywood celebrity system.
Oh, and Member, notice the link up the top right of that flyer? This is the work of the sensationalist, nutjob 'God Hates America' website, who have about as much credibility as Tom Cruise in the general Christian community. I hardly think this represents the Christian religion, or even American fundamentalists (as wacky as they can be).
Here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps
If you're going to attack the religious right, there should be a hell of a lot of ammunition around without resorting to ridiculous organizations like this.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Touching on Omar's thoughts, a slightly different perspective again.
| Quote: | Death by Media
In 1997 The Dilbert Future was published. One of my predictions was that the media would start killing celebrities just to generate new sensational headlines. I based this prediction on three inescapable truths:
1. The media can influence people’s actions
2. Death is the most interesting form of news
3. The news business is a capitalist enterprise
Therefore, it makes sense that the media would eventually start influencing the deaths of people who are in some way fascinating. There’s a huge financial incentive to do so.
An argument can be made that the media killed Princess Diana, indirectly, by influencing the reckless actions that led to her demise. That happened soon after my prediction was published. Lots of people wrote to tell me how spooky it was. Britney Spears is probably next.
Arguably, Saddam Hussein was a celebrity of sort, along with his sons. One view is that the government of the United States ordered the military to kill all three of them, and used the media as a tool to do it. Another way to look at it is that the media used the government to kill three celebrities. It wouldn’t have happened without the media’s view on WMDs and the national support it generated for the war.
While the media did not originate the idea of war in Iraq, the government is full of people with ideas on killing other people, and they don’t all happen. It is the media who selects from among the many ideas and makes some reality. If the media had ignored the calls for war with Iraq, or treated the WMD situation as crazy alarmist talk, the war in Iraq wouldn’t have happened. But war is big money for the media, especially with a celebrity dictator in the mix, so there was a tremendous incentive to help it along.
By way of contrast, the United States didn’t send the military to Rwanda to stop genocide. Some think racism was the reason. Others say the lack of oil was the reason. Maybe the real reason is that you can’t name a single famous person in Rwanda. If O.J. Simpson got elected king of Rwanda, and trouble broke out, the media would make it a story, and the government would be influenced by the public to order the military to kill O.J.
When I read stories of Russia’s Putin controlling the media in his country, I ask myself how that compares to my country. On one hand, control of the media guarantees that the government will get away with things it shouldn’t get away with. On the other hand, it will keep the Russian media from pushing Russia into war. Is that a good trade-off?
My regular readers know I like to toss out provocative ideas and see what happens. It’s a complicated world, and no one theory explains everything people do. But it is worth asking whether the policies in a free country favor directions that would lead to a celebrity death.
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http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2008/01/death-by-media.html
It sorts of takes Omar's thoughts to the next level.
Oh and Tess, don't waste your time. There's a saying that goes "never try to teach a pig to talk. It just wastes your time and annoys the pig". Trying to explain anything to Frankenfurter is about the same.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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