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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Tess wrote: | | sherrife wrote: | | frankiboy wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | | makri wrote: | | Culprit. Hope you're there tommorow night so we can 'ruin' your night again. |
Sure be prepared to cop a hiding. Love beating the *hit out of dumb greeks. |
Oh goodie, a race riot. I'll be bringing roma tomato and pepperoni spray |
I'll chip in with some molotov falafels and excess body hair. |
All righteo then I'll get the girls together and we will bring the Fishnets and High Heels if we are going all out with a stereotype riot. |
Nah, just take the hot wax and watch them run. 
Half seriously, the expected decorum at Tennis is different than that at footy or cricket. Cheersquads, barmy army's etc are expected to make noise and encourage their team. If individuals go too far, they get turfed out.
Tools (of whatever nationality) who go to an event to intentionally be disruptive rather than supportive deserve what they get.
The fact that this particular tool already has a 10 year ban from attending games of the soccer team he is leader of the fan club of, and that ban was (I understand) instigated by the CLUB, shows what kind of a tool he is. Cretins who go out in number looking for trouble, then bleat like stuck pigs when someone dares put them back in their box. 
And don't worry about Omar, he's just philosophically anti authority.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Dale61
You can't have manslaughter without laughter.
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Location: /home/room/chair
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| sherrife wrote: | | Dale61 wrote: | | The incident that was shown on the news should be enough to see the player in question banned from further participation in the Oz Open, and sanctioned for future events. |
Do you know anything about Cypress Dale you idiot? |
Hmm, what do I know about Cypress?
Cypress is the name applied to many plants in the conifer family Cupressaceae (cypress family).
Also, Cypress is a city located in southern California near the northern border of Orange County, California, United States.
Who's the idiot now?
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Whale
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sherrife 
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| Dale61 wrote: | | sherrife wrote: | | Dale61 wrote: | | The incident that was shown on the news should be enough to see the player in question banned from further participation in the Oz Open, and sanctioned for future events. |
Do you know anything about Cypress Dale you idiot? |
Hmm, what do I know about Cypress?
Cypress is the name applied to many plants in the conifer family Cupressaceae (cypress family).
Also, Cypress is a city located in southern California near the northern border of Orange County, California, United States.
Who's the idiot now? |
You're honestly not worth bothering with if you consider that a useful and/or intelligent response.
Ciao for now brown cow 
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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Dale61
You can't have manslaughter without laughter.
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Location: /home/room/chair
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You asked me what I knew about Cypress, and I told you.
If you meant CYPRUS, why didn't you write what you meant?
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Whale
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member34258
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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| I love the smell of Cypress. Looks good polished to. |
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Dr Pie
Dr Pie
Joined: 08 Nov 2007
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| OEP wrote: | [quote="Dr Pie]Yes, it is easy for us to sit back and blame the police when we weren't there. It is also easy for police command and their supporters to explain that they were there and therefore made the right decisions. The police never ever admit that they were wrong. Queensland got the most corrupt and vicious police in Australian history because a series of corrupt premiers allowed them to remain above criticism. In your own state of WA several innocent people served very long sentences because the police were above criticism - until one particular crooked cop died and the truth emerged.
OEP, has it crossed your mind that if a weapon has unpredictable dangerous consequences for third parties it might not be a good idea to use it? |
| Quote: | The consequences of using pepper spray is very rarely dangerous, but as for being unpredictable that's incorrect. The possible adverse reactions to pepper spray have been well documented and being able to identify these symptoms and treat them are part of Police training.
In relation to the other paragraph (I assume you wrote it) do you blame the many for the mistakes of the few. If so you wouldn't be able to trust any organisation in the world because at some point they've all had stupid people do stupid things. |
The unpredictable consequences of the weapon come not from the chemistry of the spray but from the fact, which you yourself acknowledged in an earlier post, that the police cannot know whether people they are spraying suffer from severe respiratory conditions. Further more, in an enclosed space like Margaret court Arena it is inevitable that bystanders will be affected by the spray.
You argument that "you wouldn't be able to trust any organisation in the world because at some point they've all had stupid people do stupid things." misses the point that the police aren't just any organisation. they have the power to destroy peoples lives. They even (in extreme circumstances) have the power to kill people. That is why the behaviour of the police must be subject to much more critical scrutiny than less powerful organisations. Of course all organisations have "all had stupid people do stupid things", but if you do not question dubious behavior by "the few" it becomes the norm for the many.
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Born and raised in Black and White |
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OEP 
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth
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| Quote: | The unpredictable consequences of the weapon come not from the chemistry of the spray but from the fact, which you yourself acknowledged in an earlier post, that the police cannot know whether people they are spraying suffer from severe respiratory conditions. Further more, in an enclosed space like Margaret court Arena it is inevitable that bystanders will be affected by the spray.
You argument that "you wouldn't be able to trust any organisation in the world because at some point they've all had stupid people do stupid things." misses the point that the police aren't just any organisation. they have the power to destroy peoples lives. They even (in extreme circumstances) have the power to kill people. That is why the behaviour of the police must be subject to much more critical scrutiny than less powerful organisations. Of course all organisations have "all had stupid people do stupid things", but if you do not question dubious behavior by "the few" it becomes the norm for the many. |
I wholly agree with you about the reasons pepper spray reactions aren't predictable, but the reason pepper spray is used (as i've already stated) is to reduce injury to Police and offenders when confrontation occurs. Without pepper spray the amount of assaults on Police and the number of injuries to offenders would rise dramatically as Police would need to resort to other means, such as open hand combat, the ASP, Taser or their firearm (obviously with regards to this i'm talking about incidents outside the scope of this thread). Pepper spray is there to prevent injury and it does it's job very well.
Yes bystanders are sometimes the victims of secondary spray when pepper spray is deployed but if the situation is allowed to go unchecked then they could have greater concerns than those attributed to pepper spray.
Doctors, Nurses, Amubulance officers, Fire fighters, building companies, banks, and the list goes on, all fall within your scope of reasoning. They all have the power to ruin lives and kill people both directly and indirectly.
And if you haven't noticed from the mass amount of press Police get virtually everytime they do something, they are held to a extremely high standard. Depending on what a Police officers does his / her actions will be heavily reviewed by the immediate OIC of the section, the OIC of the station, the OIC of the division, IA, CCC, the Ombudsman, sometimes the Coroner, the Police Commissioner, the Police minister and other politicians. Now if any of these find the slightest error of judgement or procedure an investigation into that incident occurs (and believe me that ain't fun). Further to this you have the press and the public who will weigh into the arguement, but admittedly generally the publics view of what happened will be distorted by the press and their desire to sell papers.
So with all that in mind how much more scrutinizing do the Police need ?
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A Collingwood supporter since the egg was inseminated. |
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Dr Pie
Dr Pie
Joined: 08 Nov 2007
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OEP - We are starting to go round in circles and probably are getting closer to each others position. However I will make some final comments before signing off for the night. (If you respond I will not read your response for at least ten hours)
I agree that pepper spray avoids more serious injury when used in domestic confrontations, one on one confrontations and maybe even small groups. In a crowd situation, and in particularly in an enclosed crowd situation, it places large numbers of bystanders at risk. I think the police have a responsibility to place the welfare of innocent bystanders above their own or that of offenders.
Besides as I have said repeatedly in this thread, no-one has yet explained why Pepper spray was necessary on this occasion when it has never been used in decades of crowd management at the footy, the cricket and the soccer (and at both the cricket and the soccer in Melbourne there have definitely been incidents at which the police were at greater risk than the officers were at the tennis)
I am not actually saying that there is not enough scrutinising of police, my comments began with your comment that implied that because the police were professionals and were putting their necks on the line it was inappropriate for us ignorant members of the public to criticise from our armchairs (or computer chairs). That is an argument that can be, and has been used by every individual misusing their power seeking to avoid scrutiny.
Police are different to most of the other workers and institutions that you listed. They carry guns and their actions are regarded as lawful until proved otherwise. A doctor or nurse can kill you by malpractise but they can not legally threaten your life and statistically you would find a lot more doctors get sued for malpractise and/or struck off then police get prosecuted for manslaughter.
Banks can make lifechanging decisions and (despite the existance of a banking ombusman) are much less scrutinised than the police, but because those decisions are done with paperwork rather than bullets they are easier to reverse!
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Born and raised in Black and White |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Thanks for telling me, Dr Pie. |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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| Dale61 wrote: | | The incident that was shown on the news should be enough to see the player in question banned from further participation in the Oz Open, and sanctioned for future events. |
What did he do that was wrong?
What did he do that the rest of can't do?
I am allowed to say things like "US out of Iraq" so why can't he say "Turkey out of Cyprus"?
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The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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member34258
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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| Frank Stone wrote: |
I am allowed to say things like "US out of Iraq" so why can't he say "Turkey out of Cyprus"? |
As someone on a working tourist Visa I think you could easily charge him with inciting racial intolerance.
If a Muslim came here in the same circumstances and preached the same hate, then I'm sure he would be evicted very quickly.
Some who preach hate are not even allowed into the country. Google David Irving.
Why should this man be treated any different to either of the 2 examples above? Because he plays a sport? Because he is a millionaire?
Equality is all we ask. |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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| member34258 wrote: | | Frank Stone wrote: |
I am allowed to say things like "US out of Iraq" so why can't he say "Turkey out of Cyprus"? |
As someone on a working tourist Visa I think you could easily charge him with inciting racial intolerance.
If a Muslim came here in the same circumstances and preached the same hate, then I'm sure he would be evicted very quickly.
Some who preach hate are not even allowed into the country. Google David Irving.
Why should this man be treated any different to either of the 2 examples above? Because he plays a sport? Because he is a millionaire?
Equality is all we ask. |
Hate????
What hate? How is saying "Turkey out of Cyprus, hate?
"Inciting racial intolerance" how did he do that, yet when I say "Us out of Iraq" I am not?
Why are you saying "if a Muslim", are Christians allowed to say things Muslims aren't??
I think you have a few personal issues going on there member!
My questions stands why am I allowed to have a political point of view but he is not?
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The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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OEP
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth
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| Quote: | | OEP - We are starting to go round in circles and probably are getting closer to each others position. However I will make some final comments before signing off for the night. (If you respond I will not read your response for at least ten hours) |
At least that explains why i've been getting dizzy spells.
| Quote: | | I agree that pepper spray avoids more serious injury when used in domestic confrontations, one on one confrontations and maybe even small groups. In a crowd situation, and in particularly in an enclosed crowd situation, it places large numbers of bystanders at risk. I think the police have a responsibility to place the welfare of innocent bystanders above their own or that of offenders. |
That's ultimately where we differ, I think by using the pepper spray the Police did have the bystanders best interests at heart, but I can see how it appears to be a solely self preserving act.
| Quote: | | Besides as I have said repeatedly in this thread, no-one has yet explained why Pepper spray was necessary on this occasion when it has never been used in decades of crowd management at the footy, the cricket and the soccer (and at both the cricket and the soccer in Melbourne there have definitely been incidents at which the police were at greater risk than the officers were at the tennis) |
And as i said before no one honestly will be able to unless you hear it from the officers concerned. The media want to sell papers, the Police want to keep face and the persons sprayed want to make themselves look as innocent as possible. It's a charlie foxtrot.
| Quote: | | I am not actually saying that there is not enough scrutinising of police, my comments began with your comment that implied that because the police were professionals and were putting their necks on the line it was inappropriate for us ignorant members of the public to criticise from our armchairs (or computer chairs). That is an argument that can be, and has been used by every individual misusing their power seeking to avoid scrutiny. |
I've misrepresented myself if that's what you think I was saying. Absolutely I believe the Police must be heavily scrutinized (but not victimised) for their actions. What I get annoyed about is when people just jump on the Police bashing bandwagon and either just insult the officers or the organisation without any kind of intelligent argument to support their views. The reason I reply to your arguements is because they have merit and their written with intelligence and prior thought.
| Quote: | | Police are different to most of the other workers and institutions that you listed. They carry guns and their actions are regarded as lawful until proved otherwise. A doctor or nurse can kill you by malpractise but they can not legally threaten your life and statistically you would find a lot more doctors get sued for malpractise and/or struck off then police get prosecuted for manslaughter. |
The only reason actions such as you describe above are considered legal is if the officer or officers concerned have followed their training and explain why they took the action they did.
Under investigation, and all Police shooting or killings get investigated, the officer must not only prove they followed strict guide lines, but that they had no other realistic option. And investigation such as these are gone over with a fine tooth comb it's not as easy as saying he had a gun, knife (whatever) so I shot him. What i'm getting at it that under investigation the act is considered lawful nor unlawful until proved otherwise.
| Quote: | | Banks can make lifechanging decisions and (despite the existance of a banking ombusman) are much less scrutinised than the police, but because those decisions are done with paperwork rather than bullets they are easier to reverse! |
I guess if they threw a really sharp paper aeroplane at you..... In all honesty it was just to make a point that anything can affect someone, but I get where your coming from.
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A Collingwood supporter since the egg was inseminated. |
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Dr Pie
Dr Pie
Joined: 08 Nov 2007
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I think that we have gone about as far as we are going to get exploring each other' viewpoints and we will never totally agree about the pepper spray but I suspect others have probably had enough of our contributions to this thread. I look forward to discussing other topics with you, OEP, perhaps even football!
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Born and raised in Black and White |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Can you buy that pepper spray? That would be brilliant for the steaks on the Barby. 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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