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OEP 
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth
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| Dr Pie wrote: | | OEP wrote: | | Dr Pie wrote: | | You still don't get it, do you? We are talking about all the bystanders (possibly up to 40 people) who got maced because the cops didn't have the professionalism to respond in their usual fashion. |
It's not Mace, it's pepper spray and what would be their usual fashion ? |
Read my comments earlier in this thread. |
I have and aside from saying they shouldn't have "maced" them your other comment was to get greater numbers and force them out.
What if there were no further available numbers and even if there were do you really want a fight breaking out in a packed arena, which would naturally escalate into something much uglier.
The pepper spray is used as a non-impact weapon that's very good at subduing violent or potentually violent people or persons. It would seem obvious that the officers concerned believed the situation was escalating and that was the safest option for them, the offenders and the crowd. Yes people probably were affected by secondary spray, but it's doubtful it would be life threatening and will generally cause a mild discomfort which can be quickly rectified with amounts of water.
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A Collingwood supporter since the egg was inseminated. |
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Dr Pie
Dr Pie
Joined: 08 Nov 2007
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It is usually not lifethreatening but there is evidence of people sustaining serious damage from pepper spray.
No I don't want fights breaking out in a packed arena but I ask you the same question that I asked Culprit - Why was it not possible to deal with the offenders in the manner used for decades at the football, cricket and soccer?
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OEP
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth
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| Dr Pie wrote: | It is usually not lifethreatening but there is evidence of people sustaining serious damage from pepper spray.
No I don't want fights breaking out in a packed arena but I ask you the same question that I asked Culprit - Why was it not possible to deal with the offenders in the manner used for decades at the football, cricket and soccer? |
Great question, but the problem is no one on this site can answer it because none of use were the ones who ultimately made the decision. It's quite easy to sit back after the fact and scream the Police didn't act correctly or even professionally and they need to be retrained, etc. The fact is they were there, they have both experience and training with situations such as that and they believed that was the most appropriate course of action to take.
And yes there are documented cases of both serious injury and death as a result of pepper spray being deployed. Persons with asthma, taking drugs, or subject to restraining techniques which restrict the breathing passages (positional asphyxia) are at risk. Though with the first two studies to date are still inconclusive as to whether the deaths are the direct result of the pepper spray and unfortunately Police don't have time to ask everyone for their medical history before using it.
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A Collingwood supporter since the egg was inseminated. |
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Dr Pie
Dr Pie
Joined: 08 Nov 2007
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| OEP wrote: | | Dr Pie wrote: | It is usually not lifethreatening but there is evidence of people sustaining serious damage from pepper spray.
No I don't want fights breaking out in a packed arena but I ask you the same question that I asked Culprit - Why was it not possible to deal with the offenders in the manner used for decades at the football, cricket and soccer? |
Great question, but the problem is no one on this site can answer it because none of use were the ones who ultimately made the decision. It's quite easy to sit back after the fact and scream the Police didn't act correctly or even professionally and they need to be retrained, etc. The fact is they were there, they have both experience and training with situations such as that and they believed that was the most appropriate course of action to take.
Yes, it is easy for us to sit back and blame the police when we weren't there. It is also easy for police command and their supporters to explain that they were there and therefore made the right decisions. The police never ever admit that they were wrong. Queensland got the most corrupt and vicious police in Australian history because a series of corrupt premiers allowed them to remain above criticism. In your own state of WA several innocent people served very long sentences because the police were above criticism - until one particular crooked cop died and the truth emerged.
And yes there are documented cases of both serious injury and death as a result of pepper spray being deployed. Persons with asthma, taking drugs, or subject to restraining techniques which restrict the breathing passages (positional asphyxia) are at risk. Though with the first two studies to date are still inconclusive as to whether the deaths are the direct result of the pepper spray and unfortunately Police don't have time to ask everyone for their medical history before using it. |
OEP, has it crossed your mind that if a weapon has unpredictable dangerous consequences for third parties it might not be a good idea to use it?
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sherrife 
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| OEP wrote: | | Dr Pie wrote: | It is usually not lifethreatening but there is evidence of people sustaining serious damage from pepper spray.
No I don't want fights breaking out in a packed arena but I ask you the same question that I asked Culprit - Why was it not possible to deal with the offenders in the manner used for decades at the football, cricket and soccer? |
Great question, but the problem is no one on this site can answer it because none of use were the ones who ultimately made the decision. It's quite easy to sit back after the fact and scream the Police didn't act correctly or even professionally and they need to be retrained, etc. The fact is they were there, they have both experience and training with situations such as that and they believed that was the most appropriate course of action to take.
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Look, good post firstly, but I do want to highlight this little bit. In saying that, you're giving a totally blank cheque to every trained individual on this planet to do as they will in their field of expertise.
Howard believed with all his expertise and knowledge that shipping refugees off to the US was the best course of action. Well I have no training, but I bloody well disagree.
My broader point is that I don't agree with placing our trust in authority to do the right thing. Everything has to be open to democratic accountability.
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| makri wrote: | | Culprit. Hope you're there tommorow night so we can 'ruin' your night again. |
Sure be prepared to cop a hiding. Love beating the *hit out of dumb greeks. |
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eddiesmith 
Lets get ready to Rumble
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Location: Lexus Centre
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| What a stupid society we have where the cops are not allowed to defend themselves or get rid of any troublemakers |
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Piethagoras' Theorem
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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| Culprit wrote: | | makri wrote: | | Culprit. Hope you're there tommorow night so we can 'ruin' your night again. |
Sure be prepared to cop a hiding. Love beating the *hit out of dumb greeks. |
Oh goodie, a race riot. I'll be bringing roma tomato and pepperoni spray
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Formally frankiboy and FrankieGoesToCollingwood. |
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| frankiboy wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | | makri wrote: | | Culprit. Hope you're there tommorow night so we can 'ruin' your night again. |
Sure be prepared to cop a hiding. Love beating the *hit out of dumb greeks. |
Oh goodie, a race riot. I'll be bringing roma tomato and pepperoni spray |
I'll chip in with some molotov falafels and excess body hair.
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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OEP
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth
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| sherrife wrote: | | OEP wrote: | | Dr Pie wrote: | It is usually not lifethreatening but there is evidence of people sustaining serious damage from pepper spray.
No I don't want fights breaking out in a packed arena but I ask you the same question that I asked Culprit - Why was it not possible to deal with the offenders in the manner used for decades at the football, cricket and soccer? |
Great question, but the problem is no one on this site can answer it because none of use were the ones who ultimately made the decision. It's quite easy to sit back after the fact and scream the Police didn't act correctly or even professionally and they need to be retrained, etc. The fact is they were there, they have both experience and training with situations such as that and they believed that was the most appropriate course of action to take.
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Look, good post firstly, but I do want to highlight this little bit. In saying that, you're giving a totally blank cheque to every trained individual on this planet to do as they will in their field of expertise.
Howard believed with all his expertise and knowledge that shipping refugees off to the US was the best course of action. Well I have no training, but I bloody well disagree.
My broader point is that I don't agree with placing our trust in authority to do the right thing. Everything has to be open to democratic accountability. |
Sherrife you obviously have a severe lack of trust of Police, for whatever reason I don't know and is probably none of my business. But to say that you shouldn't allow a trained person to do what they've been trained to do makes no sense. Why bother training them.
Would you allow a surgeon to perform a procedure he/she says is required, would you allow of Fire Fighter to put out a fire the way they want, what about a brickie can they build the wall the way they've been trained. If it's yes to those then why no to the Police ?
The John Howard thing has no bearing on this matter at all.
If I understand you correctly, regarding your "broader point", your saying Police shouldn't be trusted to do the right thing and that everything they do should be scrutinized. Do you have any idea how big a job that would be and how badly that would bog the system down. Let's put it this way if a Police officer stops someone for a traffic infraction do they have to first get permission to issue a ticket or does the issuing of the ticket have to be further scrutinized later, or both. What about if they charge someone for assault, various sex offences, murder, etc are all these to be further investigated once the officers themselves have completed the brief.
Your broader point would basically do away with Policing. The ability of a Police officer to be autonomous is vital to the system being able to work. Without that everything would grind to a halt.
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A Collingwood supporter since the egg was inseminated. |
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OEP
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth
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[quote="Dr Pie]Yes, it is easy for us to sit back and blame the police when we weren't there. It is also easy for police command and their supporters to explain that they were there and therefore made the right decisions. The police never ever admit that they were wrong. Queensland got the most corrupt and vicious police in Australian history because a series of corrupt premiers allowed them to remain above criticism. In your own state of WA several innocent people served very long sentences because the police were above criticism - until one particular crooked cop died and the truth emerged.
OEP, has it crossed your mind that if a weapon has unpredictable dangerous consequences for third parties it might not be a good idea to use it?[/quote]
The consequences of using pepper spray is very rarely dangerous, but as for being unpredictable that's incorrect. The possible adverse reactions to pepper spray have been well documented and being able to identify these symptoms and treat them are part of Police training.
In relation to the other paragraph (I assume you wrote it) do you blame the many for the mistakes of the few. If so you wouldn't be able to trust any organisation in the world because at some point they've all had stupid people do stupid things.
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A Collingwood supporter since the egg was inseminated. |
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member34258
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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Dale61
You can't have manslaughter without laughter.
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Location: /home/room/chair
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The incident that was shown on the news should be enough to see the player in question banned from further participation in the Oz Open, and sanctioned for future events.
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Whale
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makri 
Joined: 29 Oct 2005
Location: Clifton Hill
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| member34258 wrote: | | http://www.theage.com.au/news/tennis/ban-baghdatis-say-turks/2008/01/18/1200620184170.html |
What point are you trying to make?
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Magpie Jumper Gallery:
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| Dale61 wrote: | | The incident that was shown on the news should be enough to see the player in question banned from further participation in the Oz Open, and sanctioned for future events. |
Do you know anything about Cypress Dale you idiot? I'm not saying I do, but kicking out a protester purely because they're protesting is totally irrational.
Would you have kicked out a black south african protesting about apartheid?
**EDIT**
Brief History of the Conflict
Cyprus was first ruled by the Ottomans for over three hundred years and then annexed by Britain in 1914. By 1925 Cyprus was a British crown colony. Thirty years later Greek Cypriots fought a guerrilla war against British rule to gain independence from Britain and promote “enosis”--the idea of union with Greece. Archbishop Makarios, head of the enosis movement, became Cyprus' first elected president in 1959.[5] A year later Cyprus officially gained independence from British rule and instituted a constitution that both Greek and Turkish communities agreed upon. Shortly after, President Makarios proposed changes to the constitution that would extend power to Greece. Turkish Cypriots resisted these power-sharing arrangements and inter-communal violence erupted. In 1964 UN peacekeeping forces intervened to reunify the two sides, but already it was too late. The UN’s presence mainly functioned as a deterrent to the violence.
From 1964 to the present, UN peacekeeping forces have monitored tensions between the Turkish and Greek Cypriots.
This changed in 1974. A military junta in Greece organized a coup against President Makarios. This created a power vacuum that motivated Turkish troops to invade the north. Greek Cypriots living in the north fled their homes while Turkish forces occupied a third of the island and enforced a partition between north and south. From that point forward Turkish Cypriots have occupied the north, claiming it as the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC). To this day the only state that recognizes the TRNC is Turkey. The international community as a whole refuses to acknowledge the TRNC because it represents the unlawful usurpation of the north by the Turks.
from http://gseweb.harvard.edu/~t656_web/peace/Articles_Spring_2004/Johnston_Jennifer_Cypress_and_EU.htm
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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