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sherrife 
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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Actually we have one of the best education systems in the world. Check out this site: http://pisacountry.acer.edu.au/ for some comparisons... We're in the top 7 in all categories except reading. Hardly a hopeless system.
It's even more impressive when you consider that the past decade has been characterised by massive underinvestment in the education sector.
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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London Dave 
Ješte jedna pivo prosím
Joined: 16 Dec 1998
Location: Iceland on Thames
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
Probably because government schools in Victoria don't even teach Geography any more. (unless it's an elective in year 10 onwards that I'm not aware of).
They don't teach History either, they teach some mishmash of rubbish called SOSE which jumbles them together in one subject along with bits or environmental studies and what we used to call Social Science.
I'd suggest there'd be a hell of a lot of people who wouldn't know where on a map to start looking for Pakistan.
But that's probably for a different thread. |
I wouldn't think it's the schools fault Stui, I'd say it's more a case of lack of intellectual curiosity. I mean, if you are on the internet, how hard would it be to find out where Pakistan is on a map? |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| London Dave wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
Probably because government schools in Victoria don't even teach Geography any more. (unless it's an elective in year 10 onwards that I'm not aware of).
They don't teach History either, they teach some mishmash of rubbish called SOSE which jumbles them together in one subject along with bits or environmental studies and what we used to call Social Science.
I'd suggest there'd be a hell of a lot of people who wouldn't know where on a map to start looking for Pakistan.
But that's probably for a different thread. |
I wouldn't think it's the schools fault Stui, I'd say it's more a case of lack of intellectual curiosity. I mean, if you are on the internet, how hard would it be to find out where Pakistan is on a map? |
I'd agree with you on that, but having teenage kids who're going thru/finished high school, my opinion is that the curriculum and grading methods royally suck.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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eddiesmith 
Lets get ready to Rumble
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Location: Lexus Centre
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
Probably because government schools in Victoria don't even teach Geography any more. (unless it's an elective in year 10 onwards that I'm not aware of).
They don't teach History either, they teach some mishmash of rubbish called SOSE which jumbles them together in one subject along with bits or environmental studies and what we used to call Social Science.
I'd suggest there'd be a hell of a lot of people who wouldn't know where on a map to start looking for Pakistan.
But that's probably for a different thread. |
Not sure where you get that information from, some may teach a combined subject but most teach them seperately |
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| stui magpie wrote: | | London Dave wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
Probably because government schools in Victoria don't even teach Geography any more. (unless it's an elective in year 10 onwards that I'm not aware of).
They don't teach History either, they teach some mishmash of rubbish called SOSE which jumbles them together in one subject along with bits or environmental studies and what we used to call Social Science.
I'd suggest there'd be a hell of a lot of people who wouldn't know where on a map to start looking for Pakistan.
But that's probably for a different thread. |
I wouldn't think it's the schools fault Stui, I'd say it's more a case of lack of intellectual curiosity. I mean, if you are on the internet, how hard would it be to find out where Pakistan is on a map? |
I'd agree with you on that, but having teenage kids who're going thru/finished high school, my opinion is that the curriculum and grading methods royally suck. |
Like i said mate, we have one of the best education systems in the world. Do the comparisons using that link I posted up there.
No offence, but you're talking out of you're arse and making claims that are just statistically incorrect. 
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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No offence taken. Unfortunately, I've hijacked this thread. If any bored Mods feel like splitting it, that would be fine.
Omar, quote statistics about international comparisons all you like, my opinion is based on first hand experience as a parent, and talking to other parents. And I was active in my experience, unlike (from what teachers told me) most parents. If my kids got behind or I had issues, I would email teachers directly to get feedback. I also have a cousin who's a primary school teacher.
Most teachers are genuinely trying to do a good job. There's a few jaded grumpy farkers who hate kids and shouldn't be in the job but they're well in the minority.
The current grading system actively discourages comparison between kids and drags the grades of high achievers back to the pack so they can do the same at the other end of the scale and drag up kids who are failing.
News flash, if a kid's failing - don't cover it up or sugar coat it, tell the parents in black and white and then try to work out what the problem is so the kid can genuinely ( as opposed to statistically) improve. It's all well and good to worry about kids self esteem but don't delude everyone by grading them "average" when you stick 80% of kids in the same bucket. It's inaccurate.
With the curriculum, I can only go on what I've seen of the subjects that are available, their content and how they're taught. The only reason my son managed to pass Maths in year 9 and 10 was because I taught him the things that the teachers didn't or that when the teachers explained it in the "approved" manner, as far as he was concerned they were speaking swahili with an irish accent. I explain it in a way he understood, not only did he pass, but he remembered it.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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London Dave
Ješte jedna pivo prosím
Joined: 16 Dec 1998
Location: Iceland on Thames
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| stui magpie wrote: |
Omar, quote statistics about international comparisons all you like, my opinion is based on first hand experience as a parent, and talking to other parents. And I was active in my experience, unlike (from what teachers told me) most parents. If my kids got behind or I had issues, I would email teachers directly to get feedback. I also have a cousin who's a primary school teacher. |
First hand is fine, but sometimes, I don't agree with being governed by the aggregated anecdote. Having said that, (and I'm probably being guilty of an anecdote here myself), it appears to moi the vast majority of commentators seem to think they were genius' at 16 (or 17 etc) when they finished high school. They weren't. For myself, I got good marks etc, but as for being prepared for the 'world of work', I was a moron. I'd defy anyone to believe themselves to be any different. Schools should teach you how to learn, it's a life long journey. Expecting them to produce a finished product is cloud cuckoo land. I've had graduates from the top unis here (read Oxbridge) work for/with me who took several years to get their shit together, so to speak. They were sharp cookies too, smarter than me (anyone who quotes this will be instantly banned!!!!) but, for want of a better word, raw. It takes a good grounding, but also experience.
| stui magpie wrote: | Most teachers are genuinely trying to do a good job. There's a few jaded grumpy farkers who hate kids and shouldn't be in the job but they're well in the minority.
The current grading system actively discourages comparison between kids and drags the grades of high achievers back to the pack so they can do the same at the other end of the scale and drag up kids who are failing. |
I play cricket with a couple of teachers here, and if their experience is anything to go by, %$^Ł$%^&%% me! I did read a bit if research a couple of years back (can't recall if it was NY Times or New Yorker), which essentially reckoned a kid only really needs to connect with one teacher for them to 'get their shit together'. Undoubtedly having a parent who takes a bit of an active participation helps as well. for me, I knew, without ever being explicitly told, anything less than straight A's was not an option. End of story.
Regarding grading systems, at the end of the day, you get the best marks you can at HSC or whatever it's called these days. If you can walk outta high school with decent grades and the ability to educate yourself, I'd figure you should do OK. The amount of statutory testing they do over here (and if it isn't already in Oz, it soon will be) reminds me of a favourite saying from my old man...You don't make a pig any fatter by weighing it. |
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Piethagoras' Theorem
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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I think the thread title is a little harsh.
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Formally frankiboy and FrankieGoesToCollingwood. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| London Dave wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: |
Omar, quote statistics about international comparisons all you like, my opinion is based on first hand experience as a parent, and talking to other parents. And I was active in my experience, unlike (from what teachers told me) most parents. If my kids got behind or I had issues, I would email teachers directly to get feedback. I also have a cousin who's a primary school teacher. |
First hand is fine, but sometimes, I don't agree with being governed by the aggregated anecdote. Having said that, (and I'm probably being guilty of an anecdote here myself), it appears to moi the vast majority of commentators seem to think they were genius' at 16 (or 17 etc) when they finished high school. They weren't. For myself, I got good marks etc, but as for being prepared for the 'world of work', I was a moron. I'd defy anyone to believe themselves to be any different. Schools should teach you how to learn, it's a life long journey. Expecting them to produce a finished product is cloud cuckoo land. I've had graduates from the top unis here (read Oxbridge) work for/with me who took several years to get their shit together, so to speak. They were sharp cookies too, smarter than me (anyone who quotes this will be instantly banned!!!!) but, for want of a better word, raw. It takes a good grounding, but also experience.
| stui magpie wrote: | Most teachers are genuinely trying to do a good job. There's a few jaded grumpy farkers who hate kids and shouldn't be in the job but they're well in the minority.
The current grading system actively discourages comparison between kids and drags the grades of high achievers back to the pack so they can do the same at the other end of the scale and drag up kids who are failing. |
I play cricket with a couple of teachers here, and if their experience is anything to go by, %$^Ł$%^&%% me! I did read a bit if research a couple of years back (can't recall if it was NY Times or New Yorker), which essentially reckoned a kid only really needs to connect with one teacher for them to 'get their shit together'. Undoubtedly having a parent who takes a bit of an active participation helps as well. for me, I knew, without ever being explicitly told, anything less than straight A's was not an option. End of story.
Regarding grading systems, at the end of the day, you get the best marks you can at HSC or whatever it's called these days. If you can walk outta high school with decent grades and the ability to educate yourself, I'd figure you should do OK. The amount of statutory testing they do over here (and if it isn't already in Oz, it soon will be) reminds me of a favourite saying from my old man...You don't make a pig any fatter by weighing it. |
I agree about not expecting schools to turn out a finished product.
Part of going to school is learning how to relate to people, deal with difference and learning how to manage the expectations of others, both peer and teacher.
I'll give credit where it's due in that a couple of years ago, some high schools in Vic introduced an alternative year 11 and 12 curriculum for kids who weren't intended to go to Uni and therefore didn't need VCE or an Enter score. Much more practical focus including talks with careers counsellers and visiting workplaces and recruitment agencies.
My problem with the current grading system used during the year (half and full year reports) is that they drag everyone to the loqwest common denominator.
A = 12 months ahead of where you should be
B = 6 months ahead of where you should be
c = about where you should be
D = 6 months behind
E = 12 months behind
Now, apart from identifying the handul of prodigies and the handfull with reall issues, that lumps 80-90% of kids into a "C".
Now, a 5 point scoring scale is reasonably common, but not with a distribution like that. What sort of distribution would you be looking for in your workplace performance review process LD? Someting closer to 5; 20; 50; 20; 5?
My argument is that for the vast majority of kids, it gives no real indication of relative performance. The kid who's aceing it gets the same grade as the kid who's struggling to keep up.
The only real measure is the Enter scores and schools manipulate their average score and pass rate by pushing "selected kids" into either an alternative curriculm or into leaving alltogether.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Dale61
You can't have manslaughter without laughter.
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Location: /home/room/chair
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| frankiboy wrote: | | I think the thread title is a little harsh. |
This is what is called a call-out thread.
Any other message board has a rule against this type of thread creation, and the thread starter would be given a warning, or at worst, a short holiday.
Just goes to show the power the mods have, and how they have the ability to manipulate the rules to suit themselves.
CrazyAboutDaisy, how does it feel to be ridiculed by a mod?
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Whale
Oil
Beef
Hooked |
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Northern Pie
We are watching!
Joined: 27 May 2001
Location: Queensland
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Wow threads like this have a name? and are one to talk about abuse mate...I would have thought you might have personally abused every single Mod by now....or maybe you do not have enough time to target everyone of us because as your signature says DILLIGAF..or do you? I am confused....
Cheers
_________________
“NEVER LEAVE, NEVER GIVE UP ON THEM AND ALWAYS BE THERE AT THE END TO CLAP THEM OFF THE GROUND. WE ARE COLLINGWOOD SUPPORTERS SON, EVEN IF THEY BEAT US, WE ARE STILL BETTER THAN THEM”!(my mum)
Last edited by Northern Pie on Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Youre impressed. Who are you talking about? |
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Northern Pie
We are watching!
Joined: 27 May 2001
Location: Queensland
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I love a parade.....I love a parade....dum te dah, te dum te dah...oh how I love a parade...
Cheers
_________________
“NEVER LEAVE, NEVER GIVE UP ON THEM AND ALWAYS BE THERE AT THE END TO CLAP THEM OFF THE GROUND. WE ARE COLLINGWOOD SUPPORTERS SON, EVEN IF THEY BEAT US, WE ARE STILL BETTER THAN THEM”!(my mum) |
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Piethagoras' Theorem
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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I'm guessing LD wasn't directing the title towards any one poster.
Perhaps it was some cryptic attempt at self-deprecating humour.
Ok, now I'm confused. Why am I so dumb? 
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Formally frankiboy and FrankieGoesToCollingwood. |
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Northern Pie
We are watching!
Joined: 27 May 2001
Location: Queensland
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Um have you even looked at the size of your head? not much room for the old noggin in an Emu's head mate...
Cheers
_________________
“NEVER LEAVE, NEVER GIVE UP ON THEM AND ALWAYS BE THERE AT THE END TO CLAP THEM OFF THE GROUND. WE ARE COLLINGWOOD SUPPORTERS SON, EVEN IF THEY BEAT US, WE ARE STILL BETTER THAN THEM”!(my mum) |
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