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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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Stui it's always about money with the White man.  As I said take the cash we spent in Iraq (last estimate was 20 billion+) whack it in a bank and let them claim on it if they want too. They would never run that bank dry in 100 years.
How many Aborigines do you actually think we have left?  |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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mate, I don't have an issue with spending money on Aboriginal welfare. Check my post, my issue is making sure it's spent on the right things. You can spend a fortune on crap that will make nice publicity but be as usless as ashtrays on a motorbike or you can spend the same cash on things that will make a difference.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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OK. A lot to respond to since my last post.
| Member32458 wrote: | ^
This board is famous for it's very own posting emu.
Now it appears we have our own posting ostrich! |
Who is the ostrich? I suggest solutions, maybe they're not very good ones, but hey at least I'm thinking about it. You and others seem far happier to just sit back and whinge about 'racism'. How does that help Australia's indigenous population exactly?
John Howard 'hated' Aborigines. 'We' treat Aborigines badly. How much truth is there in that? I don't treat Aborigines badly. I view them simply as people, deserving of respect like anyone else. If I was an employer, I would not discriminate against Aboriginal people. And frankly, I think the same could be said about the majority of Australians. Racism is not the problem, you can argue it is A problem, but it is far from the biggest one affecting Indigenous communities at the moment.
Culprit, I don't find the KKK comment offensive, just really dumb. You really didn't take in a word I wrote, did you?
| nomadjack wrote: | | Cultural genocide David - straight out of the first decade of the 20th century. Nice! Here's a novel idea - how about we assimilate so there's no 'us' only 'them'. No? Doesn't appeal? FFS Funny how those that want us all to be the same, want everyone else to change and be more like us. |
Jack, what exactly IS Aboriginal culture in the 21st century?
I have no problem with the society that the Aborigines lived in prior to white settlement. I would argue that, in some ways, it was better than the society we live in today. But that society is gone and can never be retrieved. Today's Aboriginal people seem to be caught in a tug of war between their traditional culture and 'mainstream' Australian culture. There's no going back, so the only answer, in my humble view, is to go forward.
Can we learn things from traditional Aboriginal culture? Perhaps, but I would argue that it is basically irrelevant, just like a lot of the traditions of 'our' culture.
| nomadjack wrote: | As for nothing in Australian history remotely approximating what happened in Germany, I suggest you do some reading. Try for starters the following:
-Regarded as a sub-human form of life (according to the doctine of Terra Nullus which was confirmed legally as late as 1971)
-Being completely dispossed of your land and forced into camps.
-Not being entitled to citizenship or any of the rights that go with it
-No freedom of movement (have to apply for a permit to travel of reservations)
-Having to apply for permission to marrry
-Forced removal of children without due process, right of appeal or even notification.
-Slave labour
This is all clearly documented and was sanctioned by governments in post ww2 Australia. It does not include the systematic raping, beating, poisoning, and shooting of Aboriginals post white settlement, or the impact of the introduction of disease. |
I didn't say that wrongs had not been committed against Aborigines. However, there has been no instance in our history of a systematic rounding up and gassing of Aborigines. You cannot dispute this, and only the most jaded revisionist would suggest anything of the kind. But all that is irrelevant to my point.
| nomadjack wrote: | | The federal government offering an apology is not about the current government and those it represents accepting personal responsibility for these past injustices. No indigenous leader that I know of has asked for this. What it is about is recognising that what was done was profoundly wrong. This is no substitute for practical action on redressing current Aboriginal disadvantage, but it is still an important symbolic act and one that needs to be made for indigenous people to 'move on'. Hopefully it will also help to educate the pig ignorant regarding what actually occurred. |
As many have said, saying sorry isn't really going to do any harm in it's own right. It just frustrates me that it is given such priority when there are far more important issues going on right now.
| zoom_Zoom wrote: | | Assimilation means that with time the Aboriginal people would cease to exist as they/we become one "white" Australia. That isn't a solution, that's chopping off the leg when you've just bruised your toe. |
But is it such a bad thing for the 'Aboriginal people' to cease to exist? Cultures disappear over time, it's a natural process. I prefer to worry about people than cultures, and at the moment, it is the people who are needing help. Anyway, culture isn't that great... it really only serves to divide in the end. I don't see all that much amazingly great about Australian culture, really, the problem is more that there are citizens of this country who are segregated from everybody else. That can only lead to conflict, and a feeling of 'us v them'.
I agree that education has to be a priority, and it, together with assimilation, is really the only way that the standard of living in Indigenous communities can be improved.
Rudd can go ahead and apologise for the wrongs of the 19th and 20th centuries, but who's going to apologise for the wrongs of the 21st? I.e., the fact that we allowed these problems to go on without doing anything about them.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Pi
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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Apologies….,
It depends on what the individual or the collective is being asked to apologise for…..
If you wish to punish the current generation for the wrongs of their ancestors then when and where do we begin and in what country? Who is really culpable? First fleet convicts or the social and political system that sent them here in the first place? Does this establish the principal that all emigrant populations anywhere on the planet are obliged to apologise for trying to emigrate or live in an area that has been occupied by a previous group of people?
When you really get down to it, it’s likely to be a long meaningless pissing match perpetrated by people who know that apologies to indigenous people and signing the Kyoto protocols are empty slogans used win votes without actually having to do anything of practical significance. Sure, it appeases the media and few gullible lefties but real dignity and self determination for any indigenous people is not about buying a ticket on the guilt train so you can feel good about yourself.
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Pi = Infinite = Collingwood = Always
Floreat Pica
Last edited by Pi on Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Thanks for telling me: Pi said I wish to punish the current generation for the wrongs of their ancestors. Ummmm. . . . later I would guess. All over the world. |
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joffa corfe
PREMIERS 2010
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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We look upon Genocide as something that happens only elsewhere, for some would believe that the white Australian to be so pure and mighty that Genocide could not happen in this country.
Well folks hang our heads in shame, our white ancestors slaughtered murdered butchered the aboriginal race in Tasmania, wiped them from the face of the earth...
The Aboriginies didn't steal white children from suburban homes and shipped them to Ayres rock to be bought up the Aboriginal way, The Aboriginals didn't do the slaughtering in Tasmania.
The white man did..it has shamed us, it has hurt, we talk about the American civil rights movement of the 60's when infact we were no better here, We too treated Blacks like absolute shit!
Howard was a racist always has been he's nothing but a product from the very sad days of White Australia and it's redneck bogan policies, He started with the Asians in the 1970's, His refusal to say sorry to our wonderful Aboriginie race for past atrocities has shown that once a racist will always be a racist....
Australia will prosper with the removal of Howard, We as people will prosper greatly when our Government finally apologises for the sins of our Fathers!
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Football is Greatness
http://youtu.be/tJwoKbPOsQE |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Pi wrote: | Apologies….,
It depends on what the individual or the collective is being asked to apologise for…..
If you wish to punish the current generation for the wrongs of their ancestors then when and where do we begin and in what country? Who is really culpable? First fleet convicts or the social and political system that sent them here in the first place? Does this establish the principal that all emigrant populations anywhere on the planet are obliged to apologise for trying to emigrate or live in an area that has been occupied by a previous group of people?
When you really get down to it, it’s likely to be a long meaningless pissing match perpetrated by people who know that apologies to indigenous people and signing the Kyoto protocols are empty slogans used win votes without actually having to do anything of practical significance. Sure, it appeases the media and few gullible lefties but real dignity and self determination for any indigenous people is not about buying a ticket on the guilt train so you can feel good about yourself. |
Fantastic post.
| joffa corfe wrote: | | The Aboriginals didn't do the slaughtering in Tasmania. |
I was going to bring that up. Apparently the mainland Aborigines had indeed done most of the 'slaughtering' before white people finished them off.
Should the mainland Aborigines apologise to the Tasmanian Aborigines as well? Or is it only white people who have been guilty of atrocities?
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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The Liberals are now back peddling and Turnbull is backing an apology.
Divisive politics look to be disappearing at a rate of knots since Howard has been shown the door.
To simply pull the line that what has been done in the past is not your fault so why should you say sorry. If you actually step back and see what is required it’s only an acceptance that our past Governments made errors not you or other’s who presume it’s all about them. It’s simply not; it’s all about the errors based on ignorance, intolerance and racial hatred towards the Black people by past Governments, not past civilians. I am sick and tired of hearing the spin that it will open the flood gates for litigation against the Country, this is a divisive argument not to say sorry all in the name of money. James Hardie stuffed up and companies before that with asbestos and they have to payout now which is 20+ years later. Or as always should there be another rule for the black man? |
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joffa corfe
PREMIERS 2010
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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| David wrote: | | Pi wrote: | Apologies….,
It depends on what the individual or the collective is being asked to apologise for…..
If you wish to punish the current generation for the wrongs of their ancestors then when and where do we begin and in what country? Who is really culpable? First fleet convicts or the social and political system that sent them here in the first place? Does this establish the principal that all emigrant populations anywhere on the planet are obliged to apologise for trying to emigrate or live in an area that has been occupied by a previous group of people?
When you really get down to it, it’s likely to be a long meaningless pissing match perpetrated by people who know that apologies to indigenous people and signing the Kyoto protocols are empty slogans used win votes without actually having to do anything of practical significance. Sure, it appeases the media and few gullible lefties but real dignity and self determination for any indigenous people is not about buying a ticket on the guilt train so you can feel good about yourself. |
Fantastic post.
| joffa corfe wrote: | | The Aboriginals didn't do the slaughtering in Tasmania. |
I was going to bring that up. Apparently the mainland Aborigines had indeed done most of the 'slaughtering' before white people finished them off.
Should the mainland Aborigines apologise to the Tasmanian Aborigines as well? Or is it only white people who have been guilty of atrocities? |
Yeah the blackfella wiped out the whitefella....if someone invaded my home i reckon i'd be up and about to carry out some serious arse kicking!
_________________
Football is Greatness
http://youtu.be/tJwoKbPOsQE |
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joffa corfe
PREMIERS 2010
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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| Culprit wrote: | The Liberals are now back peddling and Turnbull is backing an apology.
Divisive politics look to be disappearing at a rate of knots since Howard has been shown the door.
To simply pull the line that what has been done in the past is not your fault so why should you say sorry. If you actually step back and see what is required it’s only an acceptance that our past Governments made errors not you or other’s who presume it’s all about them. It’s simply not; it’s all about the errors based on ignorance, intolerance and racial hatred towards the Black people by past Governments, not past civilians. I am sick and tired of hearing the spin that it will open the flood gates for litigation against the Country, this is a divisive argument not to say sorry all in the name of money. James Hardie stuffed up and companies before that with asbestos and they have to payout now which is 20+ years later. Or as always should there be another rule for the black man? |
The majority of civilians put Governments into power and do so for whatever reason, We as people have grown up a little, Although still very much a racist country we can overcome racism with good positive leadership..just look now regarding racism in the football terraces, in how much as good caring people we have changed our behaviour, My newly elected Government will be apologising on my behalf, wouldn't want it any other way 
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Football is Greatness
http://youtu.be/tJwoKbPOsQE |
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bwphantom 
It's Better to Burn Out Than to Fade Away
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Location: Brisbane QLD
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Well just be thankful that Beazley was not the leader, because howard does not hold a candle to that racist pirck.
It is not about which party is racist, it is the particular view held by the leader. This is why politics suck, because these wankers somehow believe that their prejudices and beliefs, somehow, are what we the majaroty believe. Just complete BS.
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All this may be summed up in one word - CHARACTER - and if that is not worth developing, nothing is.
Jock McHale |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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| bwphantom wrote: | Well just be thankful that Beazley was not the leader, because howard does not hold a candle to that racist pirck.
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What's that based on bwphantom? |
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Mike 
Joined: 20 Sep 1996
Location: Lilydale, Tas.
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| David wrote: | Apparently the mainland Aborigines had indeed done most of the 'slaughtering' before white people finished them off.
Should the mainland Aborigines apologise to the Tasmanian Aborigines as well? Or is it only white people who have been guilty of atrocities? |
Careful David, you're starting to sound seriously red-necked. I'd like to see your sources for that statement. Statements like that are normally followed by tales of how aboriginal people eat their children. I'd also like to see the bark canoes that enabled the mainland aborigines to travel over 200kms across the open sea and arrive in such numbers that they were able to do some massacring of the locals.
Or is this supposed to have happened when the land bridge was still intact? You'd better have some seriously strong evidence if you're basing your fact on something that may or may not have happened 60,000 years ago.
I expressed my feelings on this when the topic was debated years ago on this board and they haven't changed:
| Mike wrote: | As for saying sorry, I believe that there is only one person in this country who has the right to truly apologise for wrongs done to the aboriginal people. I can say I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what I'm sorry for. I won't accept personal responsibility for what was done long before I was born and I'm not sure which of the many nationalities and cultures that make up my being is saying sorry. I will say I'm sorry, but only to put pressure on the person who should be saying it - the Prime Minister. He, as the leader of the government, is the only one who can truly apologise for wrongs perpetuated and/or condoned by the government. We can't accept his personal apology, because that is as meaningless as mine.
Reconciliation, if at all possible, is only possible after the government, through it's leader, has acknowleged its responsibilty for the terrible and unnecessary sacrifices enforced upon this land's native people as part of the creation of the nation in which we now live. |
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bwphantom
It's Better to Burn Out Than to Fade Away
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Location: Brisbane QLD
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| nomadjack wrote: | | bwphantom wrote: | Well just be thankful that Beazley was not the leader, because howard does not hold a candle to that racist pirck.
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What's that based on bwphantom? |
So the fact that Howard did nothing about it also makes him racist??
Maybe Rudd is racist as well, but maybe he is just taking steps for what the people want. Maybe you are racist as well? maybe I am??
Just perception is it not??
_________________
All this may be summed up in one word - CHARACTER - and if that is not worth developing, nothing is.
Jock McHale
Last edited by bwphantom on Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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If anyone should apologise it should be the queen of England. We are all vitims of circumstance.
I work on a site wher the traditional owners have been recognised by the company, about 50% of the workforce are aboriginal, my 4th year apprentice is an aboriginal, great people.
Come to Perth, bludgers and thieves that fill our prisons, they have as much oppoutunity as their northern brothers but chose drugs, grog and crime instead. Big chip on the shoulder syndrome. Most of the black fellas up north despise the sponging attitude of the city dwellers.
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