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bwphantom 
It's Better to Burn Out Than to Fade Away
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Location: Brisbane QLD
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| London Dave wrote: | | bwphantom wrote: | | We are not responsible for what happened because it was out of our control. |
But we are responsible to fix the deplorable conditions these people live under, because that is in our control. I'd prefer to see, for example, $30,000 in taxpayer funds go to aboriginal medical care than middle class welfare. |
Mate I have worked in these areas as a volunteer and to be honest some of them do not want to be helped, just left alone in most cases. What the majority of native Australians are concerned about is their young with paint, booze and drugs. It is wasting away their culture. More money spent on educating the Young native Australians would do a lot more to help them as a people.
And I agree the medical situation is appalling and something does need to be done. I fail to see how apologising will fix this problem though. Apologising is a token...and without action it is an empty one.
And Culprit I know calling David KKK may have been in cheek but it still could be taken as a severe insult. I know I would be.
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All this may be summed up in one word - CHARACTER - and if that is not worth developing, nothing is.
Jock McHale |
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London Dave 
Ješte jedna pivo prosím
Joined: 16 Dec 1998
Location: Iceland on Thames
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| Phanto, I agree apologising is symbolic, and is meaningless without action. Most people treat their dogs better than the aboriginals. Education is a big key. |
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joffa corfe
PREMIERS 2010
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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| Culprit wrote: | David I have some application forms for the KKK if you need one.
The failure of past white control generations is the reason we have such a situation. John Howard the most divisive PM made it and issue of Aborigines V White and his Government was in the process of booting the people off their land so his mates Rio Tinto could dig up precious minerals and sell them to the Chinese. Eleven years of Government Howard produced lie after lie and what disgraceful lies they were. To accept the lies that have been portrayed by this past Government makes you a fool. We send the army into Aborigines areas stating a report which was produced by a white man. Did we send the army to Footscray where there are many of the same issues?
You cannot tell Aborigines to look after themselves like white people when you have no facilities, no industry, no hospitals, no schools and the list rolls on. We built houses for some of them, European houses and stuck them in it and said here you live like white man now and walked away thinking we have done our job. Let’s stick you in the Desert and say here you live like them. The horror of taking their children away and try to bring them up like white people was supposed to change their skin and make them forget where they came from. Years of neglect by generations of whites have made their problems worse and it about time we all accepted that. Reconciliation has to start at the top and the bullshit about legal cases will start to occur and they will rip money off of us. If we took the money we pumped into a war based on lies and put it into a bank that they could take it from as they needed it. 100 years down the track that bank would not be empty. Sure we could say there are some that don’t want our help and are losers. Well we can say the same for many a white man.
Let’s say Sorry and move forward. The Racist is now out of power. |
Thanks Dale, Beautifully said mate, brought a tear to my eye, much more to you Dale than what meets the eye
Good onya mate 
PS mate, it will be a great day for all Australians, probably the most historic day in Australian politics!
_________________
Football is Greatness
http://youtu.be/tJwoKbPOsQE |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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Cultural genocide David - straight out of the first decade of the 20th century. Nice! Here's a novel idea - how about we assimilate so there's no 'us' only 'them'. No? Doesn't appeal? FFS  Funny how those that want us all to be the same, want everyone else to change and be more like us.
As for nothing in Australian history remotely approximating what happened in Germany, I suggest you do some reading. Try for starters the following:
-Regarded as a sub-human form of life (according to the doctine of Terra Nullus which was confirmed legally as late as 1971)
-Being completely dispossed of your land and forced into camps.
-Not being entitled to citizenship or any of the rights that go with it
-No freedom of movement (have to apply for a permit to travel of reservations)
-Having to apply for permission to marrry
-Forced removal of children without due process, right of appeal or even notification.
-Slave labour
This is all clearly documented and was sanctioned by governments in post ww2 Australia. It does not include the systematic raping, beating, poisoning, and shooting of Aboriginals post white settlement, or the impact of the introduction of disease.
The federal government offering an apology is not about the current government and those it represents accepting personal responsibility for these past injustices. No indigenous leader that I know of has asked for this. What it is about is recognising that what was done was profoundly wrong. This is no substitute for practical action on redressing current Aboriginal disadvantage, but it is still an important symbolic act and one that needs to be made for indigenous people to 'move on'. Hopefully it will also help to educate the pig ignorant regarding what actually occurred. |
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Joel 
Joined: 23 Mar 1999
Location: Mornington Peninsula
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| London Dave wrote: | | we managed |
"We". Okay then.
Massive bow that one. |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | If it makes some people feel vindicated or better in their lives then that's a good thing.
If it opens the way to a spate of legal claims, that's not a good thing.
History need to be viewed with an historical perspective. |
Ah yes, the cop out argument
_________________
The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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member34258
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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| London Dave wrote: | | bwphantom wrote: | | We are not responsible for what happened because it was out of our control. |
But we are responsible to fix the deplorable conditions these people live under, because that is in our control. I'd prefer to see, for example, $30,000 in taxpayer funds go to aboriginal medical care than middle class welfare. |
And this is why we don't really need another round of tax cuts.
Spend money where it is needed. |
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London Dave
Ješte jedna pivo prosím
Joined: 16 Dec 1998
Location: Iceland on Thames
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| Joel wrote: | | London Dave wrote: | | we managed |
"We". Okay then.
Massive bow that one. |
Well, how did it happen then Joel, an act of god? 'White' Australia 'did' it.
I think you are playing the semantic games of the recently departed 'hero'. aapologies for past wrongs will not open ny compensation claims. Another furphy of Howard's. Worse than third world treatment of aboriginals is a disgrace. Like I said, people treat their dogs better. |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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| 'We' only applies to the good stuff LD. |
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Jason 
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Location: Mackay
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| Quote: | | I also disagree with the poster above who wants to see a revival of Aboriginal culture. I've got nothing against Aboriginal culture, but I wonder if that traditional culture really even exists as such any more. |
Humans are social animals, they need to feel like they belong, they need to feel a respect for their group which gives them a respect for themselves. Just look at us Pie supporters. The Aboriginal people however cannot belong in "white" Australia because of their current living conditions. Poverty and poor health leads to resentment, and what better channel for that resentment than the Stolen Generation.
So what I believe is this; to improve their living situation they need to do it themselves (with government aid certainly but we know the saying "god helps them who help themselves") but they won't do that until they have some semblance of respect for themselves and for their community.
Seeing as they won't respect or feel belonging to the "white" Australian community, they need to respect and belong to themselves and their culture. The pride they feel in themselves can push them into improving their own situation and accepting help for the cause. If their historic culture no long exists (but I'm sure it still does) then their culture must be of themselves and "white" Australia must embrace that also, it wouldn't hurt us.
| Quote: | | This is just one possible solution (and feel free to debate it on its merits), but I see one answer to all the specific problems facing Aboriginal society: total assimilation within 'Australian' society, whatever you consider that to be. Make education a priority in indigenous societies for the next generation, while encouraging a rejection of traditional culture and an embracing of 'Australian' culture. Don't allow an 'us-against-them' mentality to develop... make it just, 'us'. |
Assimilation means that with time the Aboriginal people would cease to exist as they/we become one "white" Australia. That isn't a solution, that's chopping off the leg when you've just bruised your toe.
Take what you said but with a few changes;
Make education a priority in both indigenous and "Australian" societies for the next generation, while encouraging an embracing of traditional culture and 'Australian' culture. Don't allow an 'us-against-them' mentality to develop... make it just, 'us'.
Then we're onto something. |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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Australian Culture? What is that? Drink a slab a week and have a barbie? lfmao
You cannot ask Aborigines to embrace the white mans culture when for generations the white man has tried genocide by stealth.. It's more than education. Have you ever been to a settlement? The children can go to school and then after they finish head home to a camp fire surrounded by their relatives that do not work as there is nothing there. In most cases they would be off their heads as they have no direction and nothing to do but get that way. Boredom is boredom whether it’s black or white. It’s like housing commission. You whack a bunch of people together where unemployment is like 20% and then expect them to be model citizens whilst offering them basically no future. 11 years we have had a PM that hated blacks and used them as whipping boys for his electoral advantage. You now expect the Aborigines to forgive and forget all this over night. This has to be a long term goal and we have to involve them. Not have some white man out of university telling them you should do it this way. The situation needs dollars and infrastructure. Let’s give them hope not tokenism. The War on Iraq was a scam and that money would have been better directed to problems we have at home. Aboriginal health would have been a good start.
Reconciliation has to be a hand in hand process, our first movement of saying sorry is for Whiteman to accept the damage he has caused for generations and to allow us to move forward together as one. |
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Joel
Joined: 23 Mar 1999
Location: Mornington Peninsula
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Dave, has anyone ever suggested that England apologise for occupying a land that was not their right to do so? Terra nullius?
I agree that white people did do wrong by aboriginal people, and in some cases, continue to do so. However, do not include ME in WE.
I don't understand how you can apologise on behalf of a (white) generation that died many moons ago. Though, I believe the government should agree that an enormous amount of wrong was done by a previous generation, and perhaps say that Australia is sorry as a country that we can't go back and fix all those wrongs. But, you can't say sorry for something that the current generation did not do. Semantics maybe, but so be it.
That said, if he (Rudd) says sorry, I think it would genuinely be helpful for anglo/aboriginal relations (despite my personal thoughts).
Last edited by Joel on Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| London Dave wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | If it opens the way to a spate of legal claims, that's not a good thing. |
It wont, another lie of Howards. |
I wasn't going to respond but..............
You would know well enough that an admission of guilt can trigger claims for reparations. It depends on the form that the apology is framed in. The Aboriginal councils may agree nor to take action as a gesture of good will in response to receiving the apology, that doesn't stop some individual from doing so.
KRudd isn't stupid, he will make sure Lawyers vet the wording of the apology very very carefully.
And FWIW, I'm not against making an apology as a gesture to enable moving on, as long as the moving on is meaningfull and they don't just spend more money to give the inmates of the zoo a prettier zoo. Do something fair dinkum for these people, don't just encourage them to be the "noble savage" while living a quasi traditional lifestyle and drowning in alcohol and child abuse.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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And Joel that is why our country will never become one because too many white people use the "get out clause" you just wrote.
The Government in saying sorry is not about you or me saying sorry it is the Government that is in power finally accepting that for generations we did abuse and neglect the original land owners of this great southern land. |
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Joel
Joined: 23 Mar 1999
Location: Mornington Peninsula
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| It's not a get out clause Culprit. Imagine if I said sorry for something you did? I know it's pedantic, and I apologise. However, that's the way I feel. If the government frames it so that they apologise for the action or inaction of previous governments, then I would find that more acceptable. |
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