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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Post subject: Rudd promises formal apology |  |
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http://www.theage.com.au/news/federal-election-2007-news/rudd-vows-formal-apology/2007/11/26/1196036796824.html
And this will achieve what?
Will it somehow affect the terrible standard of living that so many aboriginal communities are enduring at the moment?
Will it eliminate or even reduce the cultural tensions between "white" and "black" Australians?
Will it assist the Indigenous people of Australia in assimilation/integration within Australian culture?
Let's hope Kev's apology on behalf of his (and other white people's) ancestors' evils committed against past Aboriginal generations achieves something. But I doubt it will.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Piethagoras' Theorem 
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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Understand where your coming from David.
At the very least, it couldn't do any harm
_________________
Formally frankiboy and FrankieGoesToCollingwood. |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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"Will it eliminate or even reduce the cultural tensions between "white" and "black" Australians?"
From an Aboriginal perspective yes it will David. It will be official recognition that a great historical injustice was done to indigenous Australians by government, which is what many Aboriginal leaders have been calling for for over a decade. Would you make the same argument about Germany apologising for the genocide carried out on Jews? |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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If it makes some people feel vindicated or better in their lives then that's a good thing.
If it opens the way to a spate of legal claims, that's not a good thing.
History need to be viewed with an historical perspective.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Jason
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Location: Mackay
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I think an apology will be worth something to those indigenous Aussies who celebrate their culture and teach others about it. But to those who sit on the benches of Smith St getting plastered all day long and fighting with each other... I doubt it's going to do much but give them something else they can yell at passers by.
It seems to me that a solution, or one of the many things that needs to be rectified is a revival of their culture. To give them some values that they will recognise and respect. I think an apology is a very very small step forward and still much more needs to be done by both the government and the indigenous leaders. |
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London Dave 
Ješte jedna pivo prosím
Joined: 16 Dec 1998
Location: Iceland on Thames
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| stui magpie wrote: | | If it opens the way to a spate of legal claims, that's not a good thing. |
It wont, another lie of Howards. |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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| An apology would be a small but significant symbolic gesture. Nothing more, nothing less. The legal angle is a complete furphy Stui. Every state government in the country has already apologised for its role in the institutionalised mistreatment of Aboriginals in the past. There have been no legal ramifications at all. The federal government will be no different. |
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member34258
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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The original inhabitants of this country have asked for an apology for decades.
It's time one was given, genuinely.
As others have said, it will do no harm. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| nomadjack wrote: | "Will it eliminate or even reduce the cultural tensions between "white" and "black" Australians?"
From an Aboriginal perspective yes it will David. It will be official recognition that a great historical injustice was done to indigenous Australians by government, which is what many Aboriginal leaders have been calling for for over a decade. Would you make the same argument about Germany apologising for the genocide carried out on Jews? |
Well, in all fairness, I suppose I would.
The German government of today has no political connection to the Nazi party of the 30s and 40s. The people in the German government, and the majority of the country's population, were not involved in any part of that era. While I understand there may still be some holocaust survivors in the country, I do not see the necessity or the positive outcome of an apology from all Germans to all Jews for a historical tragedy.
Now, let me get something straight. I would have supported a formal apology after Hitler's downfall to the Jewish people who suffered during WW2 and before in Germany. I would support large compensation payouts to any such people for the rest of their lives. I would support the presence of holocaust museums, and of education that reminds people of the horror that was forced upon the Jews back then.
I would not support a "National Sorry Day", that is scheduled every year, to apologise to today's Jews for events of the past. You have to move on eventually, and such a move could serve only to exacerbate existing divisions between the Jewish community and the rest of the German community, if indeed such divisions exist (which I grant is probably quite unlikely).
Now transpose Germany for Australia, and Jews for Aborigines, keeping in mind all the while that nothing that has occurred in Australian history can even be remotely compared with the holocaust of WW2. In this case though, we know that there is a cultural gulf between Australia's Indigenous population and everybody else, and I feel that the main concern has to be narrowing, and eventually eradicating, that gulf (in other words, 'reconciliation'). I could be wrong, but I wonder if this obsession with past injustices is one of the things that is keeping that gulf there.
I also disagree with the poster above who wants to see a revival of Aboriginal culture. I've got nothing against Aboriginal culture, but I wonder if that traditional culture really even exists as such any more. This is just one possible solution (and feel free to debate it on its merits), but I see one answer to all the specific problems facing Aboriginal society: total assimilation within 'Australian' society, whatever you consider that to be. Make education a priority in indigenous societies for the next generation, while encouraging a rejection of traditional culture and an embracing of 'Australian' culture. Don't allow an 'us-against-them' mentality to develop... make it just, 'us'.
Should that happen, there would no longer be anyone to say sorry to.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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member34258
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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^
This board is famous for it's very own posting emu.
Now it appears we have our own posting ostrich! |
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London Dave
Ješte jedna pivo prosím
Joined: 16 Dec 1998
Location: Iceland on Thames
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| David wrote: | | Now transpose Germany for Australia, and Jews for Aborigines, keeping in mind all the while that nothing that has occurred in Australian history can even be remotely compared with the holocaust of WW2. |
True, the Nazi's left a few Jews, Gypsy's, Russian POW's alive, we managed to wipe Tasmanian aboriginals off the face of the earth. Aussie! Aussie! Aussie! Oi! Oi! Oi!
| David wrote: | | I could be wrong, but I wonder if this obsession with past injustices is one of the things that is keeping that gulf there. |
Nah, I'd try third world health facilities, poor nutrition, zero education, rampant social problems in the communities before even coming near to the obsession with the past. I've traveled thru a few shit holes around this planet and without doubt, Oz wins gold in the shit hole Olympics for the way the Aboriginals are treated. A international disgrace. Aussie! Aussie! Aussie! Oi! Oi! Oi! |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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David I have some application forms for the KKK if you need one.
The failure of past white control generations is the reason we have such a situation. John Howard the most divisive PM made it and issue of Aborigines V White and his Government was in the process of booting the people off their land so his mates Rio Tinto could dig up precious minerals and sell them to the Chinese. Eleven years of Government Howard produced lie after lie and what disgraceful lies they were. To accept the lies that have been portrayed by this past Government makes you a fool. We send the army into Aborigines areas stating a report which was produced by a white man. Did we send the army to Footscray where there are many of the same issues?
You cannot tell Aborigines to look after themselves like white people when you have no facilities, no industry, no hospitals, no schools and the list rolls on. We built houses for some of them, European houses and stuck them in it and said here you live like white man now and walked away thinking we have done our job. Let’s stick you in the Desert and say here you live like them. The horror of taking their children away and try to bring them up like white people was supposed to change their skin and make them forget where they came from. Years of neglect by generations of whites have made their problems worse and it about time we all accepted that. Reconciliation has to start at the top and the bullshit about legal cases will start to occur and they will rip money off of us. If we took the money we pumped into a war based on lies and put it into a bank that they could take it from as they needed it. 100 years down the track that bank would not be empty. Sure we could say there are some that don’t want our help and are losers. Well we can say the same for many a white man.
Let’s say Sorry and move forward. The Racist is now out of power. |
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bwphantom 
It's Better to Burn Out Than to Fade Away
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Location: Brisbane QLD
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| David wrote: | | nomadjack wrote: | "Will it eliminate or even reduce the cultural tensions between "white" and "black" Australians?"
From an Aboriginal perspective yes it will David. It will be official recognition that a great historical injustice was done to indigenous Australians by government, which is what many Aboriginal leaders have been calling for for over a decade. Would you make the same argument about Germany apologising for the genocide carried out on Jews? |
Well, in all fairness, I suppose I would.
The German government of today has no political connection to the Nazi party of the 30s and 40s. The people in the German government, and the majority of the country's population, were not involved in any part of that era. While I understand there may still be some holocaust survivors in the country, I do not see the necessity or the positive outcome of an apology from all Germans to all Jews for a historical tragedy.
Now, let me get something straight. I would have supported a formal apology after Hitler's downfall to the Jewish people who suffered during WW2 and before in Germany. I would support large compensation payouts to any such people for the rest of their lives. I would support the presence of holocaust museums, and of education that reminds people of the horror that was forced upon the Jews back then.
I would not support a "National Sorry Day", that is scheduled every year, to apologise to today's Jews for events of the past. You have to move on eventually, and such a move could serve only to exacerbate existing divisions between the Jewish community and the rest of the German community, if indeed such divisions exist (which I grant is probably quite unlikely).
Now transpose Germany for Australia, and Jews for Aborigines, keeping in mind all the while that nothing that has occurred in Australian history can even be remotely compared with the holocaust of WW2. In this case though, we know that there is a cultural gulf between Australia's Indigenous population and everybody else, and I feel that the main concern has to be narrowing, and eventually eradicating, that gulf (in other words, 'reconciliation'). I could be wrong, but I wonder if this obsession with past injustices is one of the things that is keeping that gulf there.
I also disagree with the poster above who wants to see a revival of Aboriginal culture. I've got nothing against Aboriginal culture, but I wonder if that traditional culture really even exists as such any more. This is just one possible solution (and feel free to debate it on its merits), but I see one answer to all the specific problems facing Aboriginal society: total assimilation within 'Australian' society, whatever you consider that to be. Make education a priority in indigenous societies for the next generation, while encouraging a rejection of traditional culture and an embracing of 'Australian' culture. Don't allow an 'us-against-them' mentality to develop... make it just, 'us'.
Should that happen, there would no longer be anyone to say sorry to. |
Whoa David you certainly put your balls out there on that one. But Culprit to call him KKK is unjustified. No doubt this is a very touchy subject and many people are passionate about it from bothe sides of the fence.
I agree with the Apology as long as it states that we are apologising for what our progenitors committed against the Indigenous people. We are not responsible for what happened because it was out of our control. It is now time to move on as a unified people.
_________________
All this may be summed up in one word - CHARACTER - and if that is not worth developing, nothing is.
Jock McHale |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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I didn't calll him KKK I said I have some forms and having said that I put myself in as KKK.  It was more tongue in cheek.
The racial hatred incited by the last Government has set us back 20 years. |
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London Dave
Ješte jedna pivo prosím
Joined: 16 Dec 1998
Location: Iceland on Thames
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| bwphantom wrote: | | We are not responsible for what happened because it was out of our control. |
But we are responsible to fix the deplorable conditions these people live under, because that is in our control. I'd prefer to see, for example, $30,000 in taxpayer funds go to aboriginal medical care than middle class welfare. |
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