What pisses you off?
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I have very low standards when it comes to employment at the moment. I'm not looking for a dream job; all I want is a workplace that won't make me feel like killing myself when I wake up in the morning. So long as I'm treated like a human being and not doing anything particularly idiotic or unethical, that shouldn't be an issue. I liked working for the hotel, but it would be hard to get much enjoyment out of work knowing that I was already on such thin ice (and would they really want to put someone they screwed over back in a position of trust? Even I can see that would generally be a bad idea...).
And yes, relative to other places and other times, these considerations are a luxury. But it's a luxury we should be thankful to have.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| David wrote: | I have very low standards when it comes to employment at the moment. I'm not looking for a dream job; all I want is a workplace that won't make me feel like killing myself when I wake up in the morning. So long as I'm treated like a human being and not doing anything particularly idiotic or unethical, that shouldn't be an issue. I liked working for the hotel, but it would be hard to get much enjoyment out of work knowing that I was already on such thin ice (and would they really want to put someone they screwed over back in a position of trust? Even I can see that would generally be a bad idea...).
And yes, relative to other places and other times, these considerations are a luxury. But it's a luxury we should be thankful to have. |
Ignore the authoritarian generation. They were brainwashed from a young age to think they're lesser humans than their paymasters.
No objective person with even a modicum of self respect would blame you for a second if you told the pricks to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. Don't even feel the need to respond to such Neanderthal authoritarian crap. The more you analyse these things, the more you drag yourself into their world. The mentally ill often control organisations, and you just encountered them. No self analysis or navel gazing required, David.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^ all very well but that won't pay the rent or help to complete the studies that may result in an enjoyable career in the future!
Perhaps they were not overly thrilled with job performance and took an opportunity to terminate?
It would be fantastic if humans treated each other with honesty and respect regardless of status either in the workplace or society in general - doesn't happen and not gonna happen in the foreseeable future end of story so sometimes you have to work around these obstacles keeping your integrity and goals in sight!
The " mentally ill often control organisations" line as justification of a decision by management that you have heard one side of is well gob smacking in its arrogance and ignorance.
Regardless I hope you find a job David that will provide the means for you to do as you wish particularly with regard to completing your studies!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Morrigu wrote: | | The " mentally ill often control organisations" line as justification of a decision by management that you have heard one side of is well gob smacking in its arrogance and ignorance. |
There might be a misunderstanding here possibly because I'm doing the complete opposite of "justifying" the management's decision. I'm lambasting it!
Having worked closely with dozens of senior managers in an advisory and coaching capacity, ignorance is probably not the issue here. I've literally never seen one senior manager I've worked with do that to even the most junior worker.
Arrogant, well, okay; no arguments there 
There are basic human relational processes, and if you have the emotional capacity to consider others worthy of even trivial levels of consideration you will implement them. Even approximately. And they were not followed in this instance.
And yes, of course I'm taking David's word for it; come on, he's written twenty million of them and we're yet to see a lie yet! He's also prone to introspection and would've already looked at the plausible ways to blame himself. That much is plain to anyone who knows him well.
Okay, so assuming that, he's dealing with nutters. It takes mental illness of one or another sort or degree to suppress empathy that much that you give a young bloke the boot and fail to justify it, or listen, or make enquiries, or provide due explanation.
As you're probably aware from your work, sometimes such an empathy deficit is environmental in origin (some harsh organisational context), sometimes internal to the individual, and often both. Also, sometimes such behaviour is fleeting (a one off) and sometimes permanent. Either way, it matters not one iota to the victim. Such behaviour is dysfunctional and destructive needs to be deemed as such. It's not simply the way the world is, it's the way some humans in some circumstances are.
Back in the old days, when everyone knew their place, such management behaviour was seen as "normal". No longer now, I'm afraid, and I pity those whose life experience has been that harsh they think it is. That doesn't mean life's not hard and David doesn't need to be tough, but the discipline here is actually for David to stand by his own rational assessment of the situation, to recognise the company's behaviour was unacceptable, and to stand by that despite the temptation to self doubt such an incident might engender in a young person making his way in the world.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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5150 
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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| David wrote: | | I agree. I need a job, but I don't need one where I'm going to be treated terribly. Even if they gave me my job back, this kind of overreaction doesn't augur well at all. |
Lance Franklin is looking for a driver.
I think that may play havoc with your ethics though...
You know you'd be expected to lose control of Jacinta's Jeep the day before we play them. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Morrigu wrote: | | Perhaps they were not overly thrilled with job performance and took an opportunity to terminate? |
She did hint at "other reasons", but apparently the car-moving incident was "the main one". Either way, it still seems terribly unfairI took care to follow instructions wherever possible and I completed all the tasks that were required of me. I did not knowingly break any rules and would never have dreamed of doing so; if I still managed to do something wrong inadvertently, surely they could have pointed this out to me on my induction or given me a warning?
I can kind of see how me moving the car could be blown out of proportion. The way she said it, "leaving the premises", did make it sound bad, as if I'd just wandered off from my shift to go pursue personal errands. But if we'd had a half-hour break (as we're probably entitled to on an 8-hour shift, but I digress), it would have obviously been perfectly acceptable for me to "leave the premises". It's all relative, I guess.
The bottom line is that I would have never done it if I'd thought it was against the rules, and I was in no possible position to know what they even were. That strikes me as evidence of a highly punitive and authoritarian-minded management team, and I suspect PTID's diagnosis is more or less correct.
(Thanks for the good wishes, by the wayfingers crossed.)
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | | Morrigu wrote: | | Perhaps they were not overly thrilled with job performance and took an opportunity to terminate? |
She did hint at "other reasons", but apparently the car-moving incident was "the main one". Either way, it still seems terribly unfairI took care to follow instructions wherever possible and I completed all the tasks that were required of me. I did not knowingly break any rules and would never have dreamed of doing so; if I still managed to do something wrong inadvertently, surely they could have pointed this out to me on my induction or given me a warning?
I can kind of see how me moving the car could be blown out of proportion. The way she said it, "leaving the premises", did make it sound bad, as if I'd just wandered off from my shift to go pursue personal errands. But if we'd had a half-hour break (as we're probably entitled to on an 8-hour shift, but I digress), it would have obviously been perfectly acceptable for me to "leave the premises". It's all relative, I guess.
The bottom line is that I would have never done it if I'd thought it was against the rules, and I was in no possible position to know what they even were. That strikes me as evidence of a highly punitive and authoritarian-minded management team, and I suspect PTID's diagnosis is more or less correct.
(Thanks for the good wishes, by the wayfingers crossed.) |
I've been 'managed out' of a job before when a team leader took a dislike to me. At the time I was astonished that such things happened, I'd always just 'got along' with people I didn't like, even those under me. Unfortunately there are people out there who will act in vicious, mean way if they have power. I had grounds for unfair dismissal but chose to just walk away. Sometimes, it's just not worth the added anguish of following through.
You seem fairly sanguine about it though (I was a mess), so maybe a bit of exploratory surgery to find out wtf happened would be a good idea for future reference. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | Morrigu wrote: | | Perhaps they were not overly thrilled with job performance and took an opportunity to terminate? |
She did hint at "other reasons", but apparently the car-moving incident was "the main one". Either way, it still seems terribly unfairI took care to follow instructions wherever possible and I completed all the tasks that were required of me. I did not knowingly break any rules and would never have dreamed of doing so; if I still managed to do something wrong inadvertently, surely they could have pointed this out to me on my induction or given me a warning?
I can kind of see how me moving the car could be blown out of proportion. The way she said it, "leaving the premises", did make it sound bad, as if I'd just wandered off from my shift to go pursue personal errands. But if we'd had a half-hour break (as we're probably entitled to on an 8-hour shift, but I digress), it would have obviously been perfectly acceptable for me to "leave the premises". It's all relative, I guess.
The bottom line is that I would have never done it if I'd thought it was against the rules, and I was in no possible position to know what they even were. That strikes me as evidence of a highly punitive and authoritarian-minded management team, and I suspect PTID's diagnosis is more or less correct.
(Thanks for the good wishes, by the wayfingers crossed.) |
i'd be looking at the other reasons path more than just writing it off as the manager is a sociopath. When there's an ample supply of people looking for a job, there's any number of reasons someone would use to get rid of someone and many of them aren't your fault. Simple things such as how well the personality meshes with the other employees, particularly if you work in teams, can be enough. Physical presentation and appearance, personal cleanliness can also count.
As harsh as it may sound, I've always told managers that for entry level jobs make your mind up quickly whether they are suited or not. Don't drag it out because you're unsure if they're right or not, if in doubt get rid of them and try again.
The reasons for that are the longer someone is there, and you invest time and effort in training them, the more the "cost" is to replace them. Plus, if they tick over the 6 months they have access to unfair dismissal. Ideally you want to be doing a good job at interview and not offering a job in the first place unless you are sure the person is what you want, but failing that make a quick call.
That doesn't mean btw that you don't invest in the training and coaching while the person is there to try to get them to required standard, that's necessary as is providing good feedback.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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I can't find the original thread, but gees Liam Jurrah just doesn't seem to learn, or are some still thinking he can't crack a break?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Re: Jurrah, serious dysfunction doesn't just right itself overnight because someone has already had brushes with the law. Learning is an essential part of the rehabilitation process, but unfortunately some people are better at it than others.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | i'd be looking at the other reasons path more than just writing it off as the manager is a sociopath. When there's an ample supply of people looking for a job, there's any number of reasons someone would use to get rid of someone and many of them aren't your fault. Simple things such as how well the personality meshes with the other employees, particularly if you work in teams, can be enough. Physical presentation and appearance, personal cleanliness can also count.
As harsh as it may sound, I've always told managers that for entry level jobs make your mind up quickly whether they are suited or not. Don't drag it out because you're unsure if they're right or not, if in doubt get rid of them and try again.
The reasons for that are the longer someone is there, and you invest time and effort in training them, the more the "cost" is to replace them. Plus, if they tick over the 6 months they have access to unfair dismissal. Ideally you want to be doing a good job at interview and not offering a job in the first place unless you are sure the person is what you want, but failing that make a quick call.
That doesn't mean btw that you don't invest in the training and coaching while the person is there to try to get them to required standard, that's necessary as is providing good feedback. |
I understand that perspective. I just fail to see how there could have been an issue that could not have been easily remedied. I don't think there's anything seriously wrong with me, and despite my occasional social awkwardness I think I was fitting in pretty well. Anyway, I guess I'll never know.
I don't think the boss is necessarily a sociopath. I can understand how, under the worst possible interpretation, this act could have seemed callous and unprofessional. Unfortunately, they came to that worst possible interpretation without discussing the matter with me or looking for context, and they certainly didn't follow standard counselling procedure.
Anyway, life goes on. I didn't want to leave my dismissal (and the accompanying attack on my reputation as an employee) unanswered, so I wrote and delivered the following letter in person this morning. I won't get the job back, but I hope they'll treat their employees a little more professionally in the future.
| Quote: | Dear [General Manager's name redacted],
I am writing in regard to the termination of my employment on Monday, the 28th of April.
Firstly, I wish to thank you for giving me an opportunity to work at [the hotel]. I found it an enjoyable and challenging workplace, and feel like I was developing a good rapport with my fellow employees.
In this instance, I acknowledge that you have done what you felt was in the best interests of your business; and that, under workplace law, I have no recourse. I appreciate that this decision is final and no longer have any desire to see it overturned.
I do, however, wish to express my acute disappointment at the reason for and manner of my dismissal, and wish to clarify some of the context behind the events that led to it.
I commenced work at [the hotel] on the 11th of April 2014. During this time, I worked five shifts, all of which were carried out under the watch of another casual employee. As a trainee, I was expected to question them on any matter that I might be unsure about and learn how to carry out each prescribed task. I listened carefully to this instruction and did my best to complete all tasks assigned to me to a high standard.
You can well imagine, then, my shock at hearing on the morning of the 28th of April that I had been fired on the groundsseeminglyof misconduct. This comprised an incident that occurred on the 22nd of April along with undefined "other reasons". I remain oblivious as to what these "other reasons" were.
During the shift commencing the 22nd of April, at around 12:30am, I left the premises of [the hotel] for a total of five minutes to move my car. This was not an action I undertook deviously or in the knowledge of breaking a condition of employment. If there is such a condition in your code of conduct, I remain unaware of it, and presume that all such stipulations would have been expressed to me during my induction scheduled for the afternoon of Monday the 28th of April.
Some things are common sense and should be understood by employees even without induction or the signing of any contracts. I am not sure that leaving the building for five minutes while another staff member minds the reception desk falls into that category. It goes without saying, of course, that leaving the building to check the boiler is a regular nightly duty, and that during meal breaks, for instance, staff members are generally permitted to do as they please. At my previous jobs, it is and was considered quite acceptable to close the shop for five minutes or leave a co-worker in charge if I happened to have an errand to run.
I understand that the hotel may have different policies, and given the nature of the business I would certainly never have locked up and left the building had I been working alone. But that is beside the point: if the hotel management takes a stricter approach to such matters, I was never informed that that was the case.
Instead, I did what seemed the responsible thing and asked my workmate if it was acceptable. She replied that it was (and had earlier suggested that I might take a short walk if I felt like I needed some fresh air). She was aware of what I was doing and that I would be back when I said I would be. If she or anyone else had informed me that this was unacceptable, I simply would not have done it.
During the phone call on Monday morning, it was insinuated that this incident indicated that I cannot be trusted. As any of my employers, friends or professional acquaintances could tell you, this could not be further from the truth; in fact, I have a high reputation for trustworthiness and have been offered several high-risk roles as a result (including managing a small business for well over a year while the proprietor was overseas). If I were actually untrustworthy, this incident would have likely gone unreported; my colleague on the night in question, after all, took a couple of five-minute cigarette breaks out the front, and I could have claimed that I was doing the same. Instead, I was honest, upfront, and asked permission. I made no attempt to hide the incident from my other colleagues or management. My honesty, it seems, has cost me my job.
The fallout from this situation is negative for all parties. I must now go through the heartbreaking process of re-entering the job market. [The hotel] has lost a quality staff member and must now find another at short notice. News of this incident may well have a negative impact on the morale of remaining staff, who may also wonder what minor incident could lead to their own dismissal.
The most disappointing thing about this situation is that it could easily have been averted. As such, I would like to propose the following steps in future:
1) That all minor breaches of employee rules (that is, where no criminal or dangerous act has been committed) by trainees be responded to through counselling. A warning should follow the breach of an understood rule, and termination should be a last resort used only when multiple warnings have not been heeded.
2) All suspected incidents of misconduct should at least be discussed in person with the employee in question before punitive action is taken. In this instance, I was given no opportunity to defend myself or provide my side of the story.
Workplace law permits casual staff to be treated as disposable commodities. That may make running a small business easier, but it does not mean that trainee employees should cease to be treated like human beings. The suggestions above may sound bureaucratic, but there is a real human cost when they are not followed. It is a cost I am experiencing right now.
I hope you will consider these suggestions and wish you, your employees and your business success and prosperity in the future. I thank you again for giving me a chance to work at [the hotel] and am happy to pursue this correspondence no further. I have sent a copy of this letter to you and the rest of the management team via email.
Kind regards,
David Heslin |
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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luvdids
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Location: work
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Good for you David, I just hope they read it in full and take on board how they could have handled things better.
You should have added something like "I'm a member of a Collingwood bulletin board and you should thank your lucky stars I have remained trustworthy & not named your hotel or you'd have a hoard of toothless ferals at your doorstep" 
I for one still want to know who they are, then I could avoid their establishment. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Haha, thanks LD. As initially satisfying as it might be, I'd prefer not to name them just in case anyone did decide to enact some sort of comeuppance on my behalf. I want them to learn from this experience and treat their employees better in future, and that's not going to happen if I respond in anything other than a professional manner. Making them feel terrible is revenge enough. 
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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KenH
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
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Well done David!
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Cheers big ears |
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