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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:38 pm
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^ There are certainly lots of badly run companies and crappy managers who deserve unions, and where unions can play a useful role. They should be banned, however, from sectors of the economy which are monopolistic, where they extort tolls against the public good. They’re also a menace in the public sector, where the “customers” are forced to buy and the parasite cannot kill the host. It’s hard not to despair at the sight of unions “protecting” civil servants from the depredations of their profiteering employer. Such a travesty.
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stui magpie 

dum nei, sakte ja


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:00 pm
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^

Well said, it's instructive that the majority of their dwindling membership base is the public sector which is, as you said, the last place it's needed.

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David Libra

Reel around the fountain


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Pripyat, in spirit

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:09 pm
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Of course, getting rid of crooks like the SDA (as is slowly starting to happen with the emergence of the RAFFWU, a rival retail union) wouldn’t hurt.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:36 pm
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David wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
David wrote:
They don’t deserve all the credit. Australians are doing a pretty good job of that themselves.


Meaningless comparison, as you know. Proportionately, violent lawlessness among Sudanese youth is far higher.


I’m not aware that that is the case, no (of course, it may well be, but without data we’re just going on gut feeling – gut feeling that is influenced, inevitably, by sensationalistic reportage). Is it just Sudanese? What about Somalians? Ethiopians? And what percentage of young men from these communities are involved in violent crime? 50%? 10%? 1%? One always has to be wary of prejudice and confirmation bias in these things: three white guys rob a petrol station, and you have three individual evildoers; three Africans do it, and black crime is out of control. Even if it’s partially true, we don’t do ourselves any favours by exaggerating the phenomenon or buying into hysterical rhetoric (like, say, African youths “are destroying the country”).

I don’t recall hearing much about Italians destroying the country back in the Melbourne crime wars days, by the way – as much as such sentiments would have been common half a century ago.


Fair. I took is as read from many comments in these pages that there is a high proportion of Sudanese youth crime. But I have not seen statistics on it, and it’d probably be important to judge it against other groups living in similar conditions of disadvantage.

Still, crime is committed not by demographic groups, but by individuals. I think it’d be best for all concerned if there was some significant probation period, whatever the origin of the immigrant : say, fifteen clear years in Australia with no criminal record for leave to remain to convert to citizenship, applying to first and second generation immigrants. You have to live in the house for fifteen years without smashing the furniture or assaulting your hosts before we make you a permanent member of the family. Since the second generation cause most of the trouble, it applies to them as well. Don’t like it ? Then don’t commit serious crime, petal.

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stui magpie 

dum nei, sakte ja


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:01 pm
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David wrote:


I don’t recall hearing much about Italians destroying the country back in the Melbourne crime wars days, by the way – as much as such sentiments would have been common half a century ago.


Well you wouldn't, as it was decades before you were born for a start.

Yeah, the mafia got a footprint, but the significant majority of Italians and greeks who came here post WWII only caused issues with their work ethic. They'd work hard, take whatever pay was offered and were largely role models for what you want in migrants, they only pissed of the locals because they would work so hard.

The comparison is ridiculous.

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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:03 pm
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Ugh. Thanks for the info.
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Pies4shaw 



Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:15 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
David wrote:


I don’t recall hearing much about Italians destroying the country back in the Melbourne crime wars days, by the way – as much as such sentiments would have been common half a century ago.


Well you wouldn't, as it was decades before you were born for a start.

Yeah, the mafia got a footprint, but the significant majority of Italians and greeks who came here post WWII only caused issues with their work ethic. They'd work hard, take whatever pay was offered and were largely role models for what you want in migrants, they only pissed of the locals because they would work so hard.

The comparison is ridiculous.

Right-thinking Aussies were very concerned about the use of garlic in cooking.
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David Libra

Reel around the fountain


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Pripyat, in spirit

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:15 am
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stui magpie wrote:
David wrote:


I don’t recall hearing much about Italians destroying the country back in the Melbourne crime wars days, by the way – as much as such sentiments would have been common half a century ago.


Well you wouldn't, as it was decades before you were born for a start.

Yeah, the mafia got a footprint, but the significant majority of Italians and greeks who came here post WWII only caused issues with their work ethic. They'd work hard, take whatever pay was offered and were largely role models for what you want in migrants, they only pissed of the locals because they would work so hard.

The comparison is ridiculous.


You don’t think the majority of African immigrants work hard?

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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:57 am
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I don’t ever recall stories of Italian gangs trying to car jack people at traffic lights, attacking kids and old people for their shoes and purses in broad daylight.

The ones I come across in jobs work hard, but that doesn’t mean we have to put up with the arsewipes destroying peace of mind in whole towns. And I do remember when Asian gangs cause similar, but not as gutless, problems. Not like this. No fear of prosecution.

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Pies4shaw 



Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:25 am
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think positive wrote:
I don’t ever recall stories of Italian gangs trying to car jack people at traffic lights, attacking kids and old people for their shoes and purses in broad daylight.

The ones I come across in jobs work hard, but that doesn’t mean we have to put up with the arsewipes destroying peace of mind in whole towns. And I do remember when Asian gangs cause similar, but not as gutless, problems. Not like this. No fear of prosecution.

Different times, different crimes. Couscous, for example.
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stui magpie 

dum nei, sakte ja


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Where ever i go, there I am

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:25 am
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David wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
David wrote:


I don’t recall hearing much about Italians destroying the country back in the Melbourne crime wars days, by the way – as much as such sentiments would have been common half a century ago.


Well you wouldn't, as it was decades before you were born for a start.

Yeah, the mafia got a footprint, but the significant majority of Italians and greeks who came here post WWII only caused issues with their work ethic. They'd work hard, take whatever pay was offered and were largely role models for what you want in migrants, they only pissed of the locals because they would work so hard.

The comparison is ridiculous.


You don’t think the majority of African immigrants work hard?


Not what I said. With the Adults, it seems highly likely that the majority do, but a significant number of their teenage offspring clearly have authority issues and are blatantly running riot.

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David Libra

Reel around the fountain


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Pripyat, in spirit

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:31 am
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Just seems like you're kind of dealing in simplistic stereotypes here – the hard-working aspirational Italian immigrant vs the out-of-control violent African youth. Of course there were Italian ne'er-do-wells, muggers and dole bludgers, too, as well as violent gangs – Mick Gatto and co. didn't spring from nowhere. And of course there was racism directed towards Italians that had nothing to do with how hard they did or didn't work.

We know that these characters exist in all immigrant communities, so what you really need are trends: are the proportion of teenage criminals higher in African communities than they are/were in other new immigrant communities? Are the proportion of people in stable jobs lower? To answer those questions, you need data, and if you have that data you need to understand why these things are happening and how they can be remedied.

The trouble here, I think, is that a lot of perception is shaped not by data or analysis, but rather by raw media reportage, which can (of course) be exaggerated and misleading, and prejudice, which we can all fall victim to whether we want to or not.

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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:13 pm
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Mick Gatto and co. didnt make a habit of targeting the vulnerable and week, as in someone sitting in their car waiting for a light, or a little old lady on the way home with her pension money. though im not so sure its just african kids doing it. maybe its the area they are in too. A white gang of kids threw a rock that cracked my daughters windscreen a few years back, right out the front of Werribee cop shop.

And that leads me to what really pissed me off today! i always stop for people to cross the road, even if its not at a designated crossing, and today in the main street, at a crossing with those flashing lights, this tool saw me half way across and still came onto the crossing, and i dont dawdle ever so there was no need. So then the traffic stops and hes stopped on the crossing. i was already in **** christmas mode so that didnt help, i gave him a spray and he didnt even flinch or apologize, (white middle aged hoon looking dude) so i whacked the boot for good measure!

Manners are free, and they can be worth so much!!

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swoop42 Virgo

The Flash


Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:58 pm
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If you sell drugs you are targeting the vulnerable and often the young.

If you use fear and intimidation for personal gain you are targeting those who are to afraid to stand up to you or go to the police.

Both of those are the standard practice of the Mick Gatto's of the world or criminal gangs whether they be motorcycle or Apex.

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stui magpie 

dum nei, sakte ja


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:00 pm
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David wrote:
Just seems like you're kind of dealing in simplistic stereotypes here – the hard-working aspirational Italian immigrant vs the out-of-control violent African youth. Of course there were Italian ne'er-do-wells, muggers and dole bludgers, too, as well as violent gangs – Mick Gatto and co. didn't spring from nowhere. And of course there was racism directed towards Italians that had nothing to do with how hard they did or didn't work.

We know that these characters exist in all immigrant communities, so what you really need are trends: are the proportion of teenage criminals higher in African communities than they are/were in other new immigrant communities? Are the proportion of people in stable jobs lower? To answer those questions, you need data, and if you have that data you need to understand why these things are happening and how they can be remedied.

The trouble here, I think, is that a lot of perception is shaped not by data or analysis, but rather by raw media reportage, which can (of course) be exaggerated and misleading, and prejudice, which we can all fall victim to whether we want to or not.


You're the one who raised the comparison with Italians, with no data just supposition to support your argument.

For the record, hundreds of thousands of displaced Europeans migrated to Australia in the years post WWII. Did we have gangs of European youths roaming streets mugging people, burgling houses, stealing cars or staging gang fights? No.

There's around 20,000 people in Australia of Sudanese birth according to census figures, 6000 in Victoria. A small fraction of the number of Europeans who came in over a similar 20 year period, yet you would have to be blind to not see that they are over represented in youth gang related violence.

Quote:
Proportionally, Sudanese-born youths are vastly over-represented in the statistics, responsible for 7.44 per cent of alleged home invasions, 5.65 per cent of car thefts and 13.9 per cent of aggravated robberies.

The latest census data shows people born in Sudan or South Sudan made up 0.11 per cent of Victoria's population in 2011.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-04/statistics-raise-questions-about-calls-to-deport-youth-offenders/8087410

There's some data for you.

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