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Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:38 pm
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All?
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:21 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
One connected prick, a casual at the docks, gets refused shifts because he doesn't have security clearance, and the unions put on an illegal blockade resulting in this clown getting paid to not work.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/webb-dock-picket-over-after-19-days/news-story/10296ff70e70b344fa9cc50575fd8d15

Really? This is what the defenders of unions think is appropriate?


Unions are just interest groups, which extort the maximum value for a small group of people wherever they can occupy a monopoly position in the economy. In this regard they are identical in behaviour to big business, which they resemble in scale. Pseudo-capitalist entrepreneurs who do not put any capital at risk in order to draw their economic rent.

Minimum wage laws and employment protection regulations are a far fairer way to achieve workplace equity than unions. Though unions run counter to values of equality, the Left like unions because they seem unable to think outside their red vs blue team boundaries.

Many years ago I worked in petrol stations in Fairfield, Coburg and Preston while putting myself through university. I often did the overnight shifts, and saw many people with children in battered EH Holdens, or whatever, paying high prices for petrol with jars full of coins. Their struggle was very evident. When I started work for Shell at Geelong, I saw people earning well over a hundred thousand dollars a year (in 1980s money) for about 42hours a week.

These high earners did work that the people in the battered car could have done just as easily, given a few months of training. The FEDFA and ASLEF workers had their second houses and boats at Airey’s Inlet because the oil companies would always buy them off rather than allow a strike to idle billions of dollars of capital equipment (cat crackers are very costly to bring down and start up). Moreover, since the awards were managed at industry level, there was no competitive advantage in striving to reduce costs. Those costs were passed on to the poor blighters in the public who were not part of the protection racket, including those who passed through my forecourt trying to make ends meet. I realized then that unions are exploiters of the weak where they are powerful, and useless where they are needed. Eventually, of course, their greed and slovenliness meant that the oil refining mostly moved to Singapore.

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Last edited by Mugwump on Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:51 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:51 pm
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David wrote:
They don’t deserve all the credit. Australians are doing a pretty good job of that themselves.


Meaningless comparison, as you know. Proportionately, violent lawlessness among Sudanese youth is far higher. Avoidance of criminality should be a condition of leave to remain. We need to get back to some basic principles of human conduct. People who are invited into your home and who then assault you and trash the furniture are escorted out. We could then use the place for Syrian families who desperately need and deserve our help.

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:14 pm
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Like 👏
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Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:16 pm
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Interesting comparison.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:32 pm
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Dave The Man wrote:
David wrote:
They don’t deserve all the credit. Australians are doing a pretty good job of that themselves.


So Majority of Aussies are Fuckwits?


A significant minority may be, Dave, but I think the majority are probably ok.

The significant minority, alas, make the lives of the majority a misery.

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David Libra

Rose with a violent heart


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: où surréal côtoie

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:44 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
David wrote:
They don’t deserve all the credit. Australians are doing a pretty good job of that themselves.


Meaningless comparison, as you know. Proportionately, violent lawlessness among Sudanese youth is far higher.


I’m not aware that that is the case, no (of course, it may well be, but without data we’re just going on gut feeling – gut feeling that is influenced, inevitably, by sensationalistic reportage). Is it just Sudanese? What about Somalians? Ethiopians? And what percentage of young men from these communities are involved in violent crime? 50%? 10%? 1%? One always has to be wary of prejudice and confirmation bias in these things: three white guys rob a petrol station, and you have three individual evildoers; three Africans do it, and black crime is out of control. Even if it’s partially true, we don’t do ourselves any favours by exaggerating the phenomenon or buying into hysterical rhetoric (like, say, African youths “are destroying the country”).

I don’t recall hearing much about Italians destroying the country back in the Melbourne crime wars days, by the way – as much as such sentiments would have been common half a century ago.

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Skids Cancer



Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 ... aka Assassin member #175

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:03 pm
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The complacency you show is quite alarming.
You need to get out in the real world, mingle with the ones you always defend and experience what is going on.

The do gooders, geez, I wonder when (not if) they will stop walking around with their eyes wide shut and see our society crumbling.

We (Australia) can't afford to service our current debt yet immigration is up 27% this year! The mind boggles.

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David Libra

Rose with a violent heart


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:26 pm
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Please share your deep, first-person experience of African migration to Australia and the challenges regarding integration. Not sure how many African youths are causing havoc in Bunbury or Coolgardie, but, you know, happy to be enlightened.
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Dave The Man Scorpio



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:17 pm
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David wrote:
Please share your deep, first-person experience of African migration to Australia and the challenges regarding integration. Not sure how many African youths are causing havoc in Bunbury or Coolgardie, but, you know, happy to be enlightened.


Did you see the News Tonight as More of these Black Kids going around Bashing Kids Up for the Sake Of it

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Dave The Man Scorpio



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:18 pm
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David wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
David wrote:
They don’t deserve all the credit. Australians are doing a pretty good job of that themselves.


Meaningless comparison, as you know. Proportionately, violent lawlessness among Sudanese youth is far higher.


I’m not aware that that is the case, no (of course, it may well be, but without data we’re just going on gut feeling – gut feeling that is influenced, inevitably, by sensationalistic reportage). Is it just Sudanese? What about Somalians? Ethiopians? And what percentage of young men from these communities are involved in violent crime? 50%? 10%? 1%? One always has to be wary of prejudice and confirmation bias in these things: three white guys rob a petrol station, and you have three individual evildoers; three Africans do it, and black crime is out of control. Even if it’s partially true, we don’t do ourselves any favours by exaggerating the phenomenon or buying into hysterical rhetoric (like, say, African youths “are destroying the country”).

I don’t recall hearing much about Italians destroying the country back in the Melbourne crime wars days, by the way – as much as such sentiments would have been common half a century ago.



Being Nice to these Things is why the Country is F**ked

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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Ballarat!

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:21 pm
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Dave The Man wrote:



Being Nice to these Things is why the Country is F**ked



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Dave The Man Scorpio



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:39 pm
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Wokko wrote:
Dave The Man wrote:



Being Nice to these Things is why the Country is F**ked




Then you have the other side that let Criminals do what every they want and say that Druggies need to be Cuddled when the Opposite is Needed

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stui magpie 

dum nei, sakte ja


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Where ever i go, there I am

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:21 pm
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I don't think there's much doubt that the Sudanese teens are over represented in the current teen gang violence.

Denying that is as stupid as labelling all Sudanese to be trouble is.

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stui magpie 

dum nei, sakte ja


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Where ever i go, there I am

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:43 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
One connected prick, a casual at the docks, gets refused shifts because he doesn't have security clearance, and the unions put on an illegal blockade resulting in this clown getting paid to not work.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/webb-dock-picket-over-after-19-days/news-story/10296ff70e70b344fa9cc50575fd8d15

Really? This is what the defenders of unions think is appropriate?


Unions are just interest groups, which extort the maximum value for a small group of people wherever they can occupy a monopoly position in the economy. In this regard they are identical in behaviour to big business, which they resemble in scale. Pseudo-capitalist entrepreneurs who do not put any capital at risk in order to draw their economic rent.

Minimum wage laws and employment protection regulations are a far fairer way to achieve workplace equity than unions. Though unions run counter to values of equality, the Left like unions because they seem unable to think outside their red vs blue team boundaries.

Many years ago I worked in petrol stations in Fairfield, Coburg and Preston while putting myself through university. I often did the overnight shifts, and saw many people with children in battered EH Holdens, or whatever, paying high prices for petrol with jars full of coins. Their struggle was very evident. When I started work for Shell at Geelong, I saw people earning well over a hundred thousand dollars a year (in 1980s money) for about 42hours a week.

These high earners did work that the people in the battered car could have done just as easily, given a few months of training. The FEDFA and ASLEF workers had their second houses and boats at Airey’s Inlet because the oil companies would always buy them off rather than allow a strike to idle billions of dollars of capital equipment (cat crackers are very costly to bring down and start up). Moreover, since the awards were managed at industry level, there was no competitive advantage in striving to reduce costs. Those costs were passed on to the poor blighters in the public who were not part of the protection racket, including those who passed through my forecourt trying to make ends meet. I realized then that unions are exploiters of the weak where they are powerful, and useless where they are needed. Eventually, of course, their greed and slovenliness meant that the oil refining mostly moved to Singapore.


Great post.

I grew up with a dad who was a Labor and Union man, so I took on similar traits. My illusions got shattered when I started to negotiate with them in my role as a Personnel Manager at Telstra in the early 90's. Several candid conversations, sometimes over beers, irrevocably shattered the rose coloured glasses and gave me a far more pragmatic view which has been reinforced by experiences over the past decades. It's all about power and politics nowdays, it's a business and i actually feel sorry for the brainwashed idealists who can't see that.

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I'd like to apologise to anyone I haven't offended yet. Be patient, I'm working through a list. You're entitled to your own opinion, but if it disagrees with mine, it's wrong.
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