What pisses you off?
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | Oh, dear, everywhere you go, you see reality through self-programmed ideological blinkers.
It's very clear from the material you posted (which was interesting, thanks) that it's nothing to do with whether something is done via public workers or private contracts. It's to do with the lack of interest shown public authorities in assuring that the work is done properly. |
Perhaps your problem is you don't go anywhere and don't see anything to get upset at, to enable you to compare and contrast things going on in the world. You can see this in Camberwell and Brixton every bit as much as Reading West and North Dublin and many other cities if you care to investigate it.
Rather than me being ideological, you're being naive and removed; I don't just study the economic geography; I get out on the streets, walk the streets, photo the streets, talk to residents, and such, and have so across many countries; it's not ideology, it's an hypothesis with research, both macro and micro.
I actually reckon if you came out with me and I showed you this stuff you'd be fuming yourself. You can't step back and look at the whole without it getting to you.
Think about the incentive system here, which concerns basic calculations at the very core of modern economics:
- Government farms out contracts
- Contractors hide behind layers and hoops and vague websites
- Government hides behind vague websites and contractors
- Governments blame "the economy" saying they have no money, reducing the matter to a vague "cost problem"
- Contractors in turn blame the government and hire PR agents to spin nonsense, buying media coverage
Then, consider the incentives of the local citizenry:
- Shite (for whatever reason) and downwardly-mobile residents foul an area
- Shite residents by definition are too shite to complain and hold service providers to account
- Shite residents are renting, and have no incentive to care for shite buildings which they've been forced to rent by price constraints (this creates its own downward contest between landlords and tenants of such shite properties in shite areas, BTW)
- Shite residents have children, who grow up in said shite context and learn no one gives a shite and no one - no adult, no neighbour, no service provider or no government - is responsible and gives a toss, generalising said shite attitude and taking it with them for life
- Fred tries to fight the tide, but gets tired of stepping on dog shite and clearing out other people's rubbish
- Fred eventually sells up and moves, even though it costs him
- Because Fred has moved and it costs him, he counts that extra cost as him doing something, and is bitter about it
- At election time, Fred blames the shite residents in the old shite area, and won't pay more tax, blaming said shite residents
- No one takes responsibility at election time, as said waste and urban decay problem becomes a vague culture war over tax
- City dives into mobile, competent haves, and shite downtrodden have-nots and their shite impoverished culture
- Shite area spreads and some shite areas eventually join into larger shite swathes, devaluing giant areas of the city, including the city centre, devaluing the city itself as an entity
- More contracts are dished out behind closed doors to "service" shite areas without oversight, costing more because no one is representing said shite area residents at the negotiating table
- Due to the lack of critical oversight and representation, contractors in cosy relationships with corrupt local government take more and give shiter service
- The city as a whole pays more (inflation) and makes less income as tourists and companies head elsewhere, competent workers following in their wake
- Upwardly mobile folk who by now feel incredibly superior humans to said shite residents in shite areas refuse to pay more tax, and hide behind their walled suburbs, blaming said shite people, offering less city oversight, and avoiding shite areas so as to put the matter out of mind
- Rinse and repeat, as things enter a downward spiral
That kind of stuff is a matter plain, basic economic incentives. Basic incentive calculations of the sort you believe in. It is a huge error to assume all signalling systems, and all incentive systems, are positive. Some are hopelessly negative, and extremely hard to stop once you let them get some momentum up.
I'm not the first to think the key is to stop those processes kicking off. This stuff is basic urban economics of the sort studied by Glaeser at Harvard, and is basic economic geography going back decades now. This is not some radical ideology. As I say, I reckon if you look into this it will resonate with you.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Not sure where your assumption that "I don't go anywhere" came from, but trying to stay with the substance, private companies subcontract services all the time. The good ones are just good at managing it - as are the good councils, of which there are many, including the two that I interact with. Both have private rubbish collection, and it is just fine.
It's just a management problem, not an ideological matter. But the art of effective contract management does take a long time to learn, and it is not easy to find good people who do it well.
Your "incentives" bullet points are not true at all. My company contracts millions upon millions of pounds via third party service providers, very successfully ; but our procurement people are hot on their tails, our KPIs are stewarded carefully, and we work closely with them to get it right. Your "Layers and hoops and vague websites" can only bamboozle people who do not know what they are doing in managing your taxes.
For all that, I do not argue that some streetscapes are pretty shabby, just as some are good. The best defence against the shabbies is to badger the local councils into lifting their game.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^The middle ground we can find is this: That system of negative incentives isn't universal; it is, however a very likely one in many cases. I can wade through the shite websites and negotiate with landlords and get neighbours to stop slamming doors and smoking in front of windows. (It takes some serious bloody effort though, and far more time than it ought!).
You and I don't need to be micro-managed to keep things tidy and to respect folks about us; but other people, for a host of reasons and human differences, need more proactive assistance. This is clearly the case in poorer areas with greater dug abuse, unemployment, higher rates of renting (as opposed to the care taken by owner-occupiers), people of different cultures still learning the ropes, folks working dreary hours just to make ends meet, etc.
Upwardly-mobile areas are by definition filled with folks with the efficacy to get things done. A different incentives system is often at work there. Yet those folks are making decisions for other parts of town, and in doing so making shite decisions.
The bad ideology here is from those implementing systems blindly without respect to residential differentiation and resident needs. Certainly, it doesn't take a genius to see where these things work, and where they are trapped in a negative incentive system.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Morrigu wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: |
Morrigu, I demand you personally come and clean up the dumped rubbish near my house and the chewing gum and dog turds off all the city streets!   You would be really angry; it just infuriates me to see a great city devalued like that, and I reckon it really weighs on people's psychology. |
I told you not to stay in Dublin too long 
I'm not a Dubliner they've always been grubs!!! |
Haha. I have picked up how big the county rivalry is already, especially given we're currently close to Croke Park (a bit dodgy, but easy bus into town), and we've started getting into the Gaelic footy!
I reckon long-term the idea is to live in some quaint place within striking distance of Dublin city. A tradey we had over the other day commutes from Wicklow, and reckons it's only 45 mins if you know the roads - and you've got beach one side, mountains the other and fishing lakes
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Not all that relevant to the discussion at hand, but 27 'shites' in one post! I think we might have a new world record.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^ what till he catches on to feck we shall have a feast of feck shite eejit
Wicklow is gorgeous PTID - and that's not bias as it isn't my County either!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| David wrote: | | Not all that relevant to the discussion at hand, but 27 'shites' in one post! I think we might have a new world record. |
Haha, well, it is the pissed off thread!
You know what upsets me most? It's the same *everywhere*. It's just so we obvious what's happening as you visit places; and yet, instead of making things easier for people trapped in difficult contexts, policies which do the exact opposite are pursued with sordid gusto.
In the end a percentage of folks always do okay regardless; in the end people make the best of their lot; in the end I can always move and *abandon* these areas for somewhere nicer; but the loss of wealth and happiness through corrupt and destructive policy undermines so much human value and productivity, and makes us all worse off in so many ways 
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Morrigu wrote: | | ^ what till he catches on to feck we shall have a feast of feck shite eejit |
I had to laugh the other day when one bloke said feck'n this and that every second word, and the Beloved One was looking confused and asked me afterwards if "feck" is a Gaelic word!
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Wanted to get so much done today, had plans. All been shot down by crippling anxiety.
I've suffered from anxiety my whole life, occasionally depression too. Runs deep in my family, generally presenting as self medication; my father, both grandfathers, 1 grandmother and uncle are all either alcoholics or drug addicted (despite being fully functional and a successful member of society he is/was a heroin addict).
I've been white knuckling it to keep life moving; getting my daughter to school and picking her up, getting clothes washed and food, if not cooked at least ordered. Seems to be catching up with me because today I feel like if I try and do anything it's going to be bad... and if I do nothing it's going to be bad. Hard to describe to someone who doesn't suffer it, but imagine the feeling you get just before you have to speak in front of a crowd. Now feel it all day.
Anyway, just wanted to vent a bit because I'm getting pretty pissed off at myself for my lack of activity. Been exercising and eating pretty well to try and treat/manage this crap but for the last 3 days it just isn't working.
Oh well, deep breath and keep on keeping on I guess, just had to say something and I'm not a blurt it out on facebook kinda guy.  Guess the fact I suffer from a mental illness wont come as a big surprise to some around here (even though I bet their money was on paranoid delusion) |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Wokko wrote: | Wanted to get so much done today, had plans. All been shot down by crippling anxiety.
I've suffered from anxiety my whole life, occasionally depression too. Runs deep in my family, generally presenting as self medication; my father, both grandfathers, 1 grandmother and uncle are all either alcoholics or drug addicted (despite being fully functional and a successful member of society he is/was a heroin addict).
I've been white knuckling it to keep life moving; getting my daughter to school and picking her up, getting clothes washed and food, if not cooked at least ordered. Seems to be catching up with me because today I feel like if I try and do anything it's going to be bad... and if I do nothing it's going to be bad. Hard to describe to someone who doesn't suffer it, but imagine the feeling you get just before you have to speak in front of a crowd. Now feel it all day.
Anyway, just wanted to vent a bit because I'm getting pretty pissed off at myself for my lack of activity. Been exercising and eating pretty well to try and treat/manage this crap but for the last 3 days it just isn't working.
Oh well, deep breath and keep on keeping on I guess, just had to say something and I'm not a blurt it out on facebook kinda guy. Guess the fact I suffer from a mental illness wont come as a big surprise to some around here (even though I bet their money was on paranoid delusion) |
Cheers mate I get where your coming from. Had an anxiety attack a couple of weeks back so bad I couldn't breath, I went numb all over and since I was driving I really panicked, a lady called an ambulance nothing wrong with me! Yesterday I got some blood test results back, I had them done as I thought I was menopausal or simply going crazy, no energy, sore muscles, shortness of breath, unexplained weight gain (and it's really pushed the limit of my self control to fix that one but Im nearly there!) sad all the time and just generally not my happy go lucky positive self.turned out I have an under active thyroid, getting another more thorough test to find out what I need to fit it, and it is fixable which has already brightened my mood significantly!
Have you had your health all checked out? It's so easy when you are caring
for everyone around you to forget yourself. Peace be with you my friend, I hope you find what you need xxx
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Thanks TP, I'm glad there's a physical reason behind your issue (not glad you've got it, but at least you can treat it and move on). I've had all the tests done, and physically I'm fine (at least as far as they know without checking some rare stuff). I always feel good after having a Jiu Jitsu session, and will be looking to get back into competing this year so hopefully I can get past this episode and move on. This morning I was almost at the go to doctors for some meds stage, but gritted my teeth and just chilled out for a while. I feel guilty because I want to take my kid out and do something, but just can't. I mean, she doens't care, she gets to play minecraft ... but that wasn't my plan for the weekend.
I've found having the dog around helps, because no matter how shit things are, he's happy and wants to give me a lick and get a pat or demands I take him for a walk (which gets me out). |
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luvdids 
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Location: work
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| Wokko wrote: | Wanted to get so much done today, had plans. All been shot down by crippling anxiety.
I've suffered from anxiety my whole life, occasionally depression too. Runs deep in my family, generally presenting as self medication; my father, both grandfathers, 1 grandmother and uncle are all either alcoholics or drug addicted (despite being fully functional and a successful member of society he is/was a heroin addict).
I've been white knuckling it to keep life moving; getting my daughter to school and picking her up, getting clothes washed and food, if not cooked at least ordered. Seems to be catching up with me because today I feel like if I try and do anything it's going to be bad... and if I do nothing it's going to be bad. Hard to describe to someone who doesn't suffer it, but imagine the feeling you get just before you have to speak in front of a crowd. Now feel it all day.
Anyway, just wanted to vent a bit because I'm getting pretty pissed off at myself for my lack of activity. Been exercising and eating pretty well to try and treat/manage this crap but for the last 3 days it just isn't working.
Oh well, deep breath and keep on keeping on I guess, just had to say something and I'm not a blurt it out on facebook kinda guy. Guess the fact I suffer from a mental illness wont come as a big surprise to some around here (even though I bet their money was on paranoid delusion) |
 That sure sounds shite. Do you meditate? I don't, but my sister was severely depressed for many years, doctor told our Mum she'd never be off medication (several suicide attempts), she got into Reiki & meditation and has been off everything for years. She's probably more at peace & happier than me! Not sure about the Reiki side of things but I know many people that swear by meditation. Thankfully I've never really suffered with mental illness so had no idea really what anxiety was, thanks for the explanation, make sense.
Hope you get anxietyless/feel better soon x (is that even a word? I doubt it!) |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Thanks LD 
I've tried to meditate, but my brain just doesn't work that way. Always have some thought or another flying around. Put on some brown noise last night (like white noise but lower) and that seemed to help with calming down. It helps to know I'll just wake up in the next couple of mornings and it'll all be fine again, it's just taking a bit longer than normal to come good.
I think Reiki is a bit of a crock personally (don't tell her I said that ), but it's good it worked for her anyway. Want to try Yoga, but get anxious about starting it so I don't (should a guy make sure he's at the front of the class to not look like a perve, or at the back so nobody sees my terrible form) |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Don't worry what anyone thinks that's their problem
Your daughter will be fine, your there with her, and yes dogs give the best love! None like it!
Is there anything that helps you get through it? Anyone? Would suiting up and kicking the fence palings down help?
Or just keep posting we are here xxx
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Interesting.
Keep posting about it Wokko if it helps, I'm afraid I can't really relate, sorry.
I like the feeling I get before I have to speak to an audience, I channel the nervous feeling into adrenalin and I get a buzz out of it. Sometimes too much of a buzz if I'm not careful 
I've apparently had anxiety twice. First time 20+ years ago it presented as stomach pain and cramps, vomiting, I thought I had an ulcer. After some tests the doc said it was anxiety and gave me some tablets, I took 2 and threw the rest in the bin once I'd given up trying to work out what I was anxious about. Once I realised there was nothing i should be worried about, the pain went away. I suppose I talked myself out of it.
The other time was about 8 years ago, I was getting chest pains. Did all the tests in the Austin ED (when you present to an ED with chest pains they don't stuff around) and again it was diagnosed as anxiety. I didn't even bother getting tablets that time.
I do find alcohol helps shut my brain off at night though.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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