What pisses you off?
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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damn.  I'm glad i never got a photo taken with a dead rabbit.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Morrigu wrote: | ^ if you hunt for food or for skins etc that will be used to clothe you etc then yep I think that is fine ( well acceptable at least).
However if you hunt for "fun" or to collect "trophies" then you are a scumbag of the highest order and I wish you a horrible painful ending and if you pose with your "trophy" then I hope for prolonged pain for you! |
Given that we have a choice about eating meat and wearing leather, with lots of alternatives to both, why ??
Ps i don't really like hunting and have never done it, so have no axe to grind, just querying the logic.
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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If you've never done it, how do you know you don't like it?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | | If you've never done it, how do you know you don't like it? |
well, I've not eaten fish paste and banana sandwiches, but you know, one has a feeling that some things just aren't going to float the boat. You're right that i should have said "I don't think I'd like it" to be accurate. I could be wrong about that, though - I can imagine how archaic instincts in my evolved being could be stirred by it.
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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That may be true Mugwump for most Western societies but that is not the case for many societies in Africa, in Alaska etc - there are not always alternatives - mind you these aren't the hunt for " fun" folk either - that seems to be wealthy Westerners - why is that?
If an animal must be killed then at least it should be for reasons of sustenance or genuine need and yes I understand that for farmers there are many feral animals ( most as a result of human actions or inactions- feral cats, dogs, camels, rabbits, cane toads etc etc) that have to be killed but the concept of killing for fun, for sport or to collect their heads, tusks, antlers, skins as a trophy I just can't have - it makes me sick and it ain't no sport that's for sure!!
There's probably no logic but that's how I feel and what I believe. We rearranged our upcoming trip to exclude Zimbabwe ( as much as we would love to see Vic Falls) as they sanction paid trophy hunting - we try to be true to our beliefs - whether they are logical or not - well..........
Oh and I don't get the whole pose thing grinning like some village idiot cause you killed something... Seriously WTF is that about .... Most folk were outraged of images of terrorists holding the heads of humans they had killed .... Why are such pictures of humans doing this with animals acceptable?
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
Last edited by Morrigu on Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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I hunt for food regularly. Just this week I went on a field trip in search of a prize fresh cucumber. Heavily armed and well-equipped with machete and late-model GPS, I ventured fearlessly into what used to be my back yard but is now a terryifying jungle populated by ferocious giant pumpkins.
Yes, it was risky but after a great deal of exertion and a few desperate moments wondering if I would ever see my nearest and dearest again, I emerged from the pumpkin patch, weak with exhaustion but unharmed and in possession of three basil leaves, a red capsicum, and a delicious fresh cucumber.
Hunting. Don't knock it.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Morrigu wrote: | That may be true Mugwump for most Western societies but that is not the case for many societies in Africa, in Alaska etc - there are not always alternatives - mind you these aren't the hunt for " fun" folk either - that seems to be wealthy Westerners - why is that?
If an animal must be killed then at least it should be for reasons of sustenance or genuine need and yes I understand that for farmers there are many feral animals ( most as a result of human actions or inactions- feral cats, dogs, camels, rabbits, cane toads etc etc) that have to be killed but the concept of killing for fun, for sport or to collect their heads, tusks, antlers, skins as a trophy I just can't have - it makes me sick and it ain't no sport that's for sure!!
There's probably no logic but that's how I feel and what I believe. We rearranged our upcoming trip to exclude Zimbabwe ( as much as we would love to see Vic Falls) as they sanction paid trophy hunting - we try to be true to our beliefs - whether they are logical or not - well..........
Oh and I don't get the whole pose thing grinning like some village idiot cause you killed something... Seriously WTF is that about .... Most folk were outraged of images of terrorists holding the heads of humans they had killed .... Why are such pictures of humans doing this with animals acceptable? |
Fair enough, though i think there's a pretty big difference between the terrorist and hunter analogy on many levels - but let's not go there. Your values of "do no harm" are a pretty good place to start. Enjoy the safari.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Tannin wrote: | I hunt for food regularly. Just this week I went on a field trip in search of a prize fresh cucumber. Heavily armed and well-equipped with machete and late-model GPS, I ventured fearlessly into what used to be my back yard but is now a terryifying jungle populated by ferocious giant pumpkins.
Yes, it was risky but after a great deal of exertion and a few desperate moments wondering if I would ever see my nearest and dearest again, I emerged from the pumpkin patch, weak with exhaustion but unharmed and in possession of three basil leaves, a red capsicum, and a delicious fresh cucumber.
Hunting. Don't knock it. |
It was a very sharp piece of mango, sir.....
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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FAMILY and friends of the elephant shot by Glenn McGrath said they were overwhelmed by the heartfelt apology the former cricketer tweeted.
Obviously we were pretty upset at the time and its not something you ever forget, especially as an elephant, a spokesman for the herd said.
But going to the trouble of tweeting something makes up for a lot. It must have taken him a couple of minutes to do that.
Of course, it would have been nice if the apology had come at the time, not just when Glenn was publicly exposed but what are you going to do?
A relative of the hyenas also killed by Glenn said they were also saddened to hear Glenn was going through a difficult time when it happened.
We feel a bit selfish now. Here we were, all upset because our loved ones had been shot for the pure fun of it and it turns out Glenn wasnt having the best time either, said a close relative.
We note that Glenn has shown true remorse the minute it became embarrassing for him and threatened a heap of sponsorships he had.
A friend the defenceless buffalo Glenn shot for sport was less forgiving however.
An apology is fine I guess, but wanting to shoot anything for pure fun in this day and age goes a bit to a persons character.
Im not sure an apology makes that all go away in an instant.
Several other rare African species contacted said they hoped Glenn McGrath would stop shooting things.
http://titusoreily.com/we-appreciate-the-apology-from-glenn-mcgrath-elephants-relatives/
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Morrigu wrote: | ^ if you hunt for food or for skins etc that will be used to clothe you etc then yep I think that is fine ( well acceptable at least).
However if you hunt for "fun" or to collect "trophies" then you are a scumbag of the highest order and I wish you a horrible painful ending and if you pose with your "trophy" then I hope for prolonged pain for you! |
I don't think you can justifiably make such a blanket distinction. In prosperous Western countries, at least, meat and leather are optional. Yes, it does seem like a more defensible outcome to make your quarry into a roast or a pair of shoes as opposed to sticking a head on your wall, but even these are mere lifestyle choices at the end of the day. No-one has to eat meat.
That being so, the fact that one eats the rabbit they shot as opposed to merely posing with it and throwing it away doesn't seem like much in the way of moral vindication to me. By the same token, it would seem absurd to demonise hunters and not the millions who eat meat every day and never spend a minute thinking of where it comes from.
If you wonder why I come up with these annoying devil's advocate views when this topic is discussed, it's because I find any black and white view on animal rights that isn't accompanied by a thorough rejection of this society's dealings with animals (in nearly every facet) pretty unsustainable. These are complex, uncomfortable issues that don't have obvious answers, and IMHO it doesn't sit well that we are supposed to treat Glenn McGrath like Satan incarnate for needlessly killing a few exotic animals, whilst most of us here chew through hundreds, thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of less exotic animals in our lifetimesall because we don't feel like ordering the salad and a handful of protein supplements.
I definitely think that we could afford to treat animals better, and that probably starts with avoiding unnecessary and/or pointless killing. Is sports hunting pointless? Possibly, and I certainly have no interest in it, but I do understand the perspective that it might be an important survival skill to learn. If so, people would at the very least do well to stick to non-endangered species.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Morrigu wrote: | FAMILY and friends of the elephant shot by Glenn McGrath said they were overwhelmed by the heartfelt apology the former cricketer tweeted.
Obviously we were pretty upset at the time and its not something you ever forget, especially as an elephant, a spokesman for the herd said.
But going to the trouble of tweeting something makes up for a lot. It must have taken him a couple of minutes to do that.
Of course, it would have been nice if the apology had come at the time, not just when Glenn was publicly exposed but what are you going to do?
A relative of the hyenas also killed by Glenn said they were also saddened to hear Glenn was going through a difficult time when it happened.
We feel a bit selfish now. Here we were, all upset because our loved ones had been shot for the pure fun of it and it turns out Glenn wasnt having the best time either, said a close relative.
We note that Glenn has shown true remorse the minute it became embarrassing for him and threatened a heap of sponsorships he had.
A friend the defenceless buffalo Glenn shot for sport was less forgiving however.
An apology is fine I guess, but wanting to shoot anything for pure fun in this day and age goes a bit to a persons character.
Im not sure an apology makes that all go away in an instant.
Several other rare African species contacted said they hoped Glenn McGrath would stop shooting things.
http://titusoreily.com/we-appreciate-the-apology-from-glenn-mcgrath-elephants-relatives/ |
Stolen.
I can't believe anyone can defend this idiot. Just because he's a famous cricketer? May he snap a hamstring the next step he takes
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Morrigu wrote: | That may be true Mugwump for most Western societies but that is not the case for many societies in Africa, in Alaska etc - there are not always alternatives - mind you these aren't the hunt for " fun" folk either - that seems to be wealthy Westerners - why is that?
If an animal must be killed then at least it should be for reasons of sustenance or genuine need and yes I understand that for farmers there are many feral animals ( most as a result of human actions or inactions- feral cats, dogs, camels, rabbits, cane toads etc etc) that have to be killed but the concept of killing for fun, for sport or to collect their heads, tusks, antlers, skins as a trophy I just can't have - it makes me sick and it ain't no sport that's for sure!!
There's probably no logic but that's how I feel and what I believe. We rearranged our upcoming trip to exclude Zimbabwe ( as much as we would love to see Vic Falls) as they sanction paid trophy hunting - we try to be true to our beliefs - whether they are logical or not - well..........
Oh and I don't get the whole pose thing grinning like some village idiot cause you killed something... Seriously WTF is that about .... Most folk were outraged of images of terrorists holding the heads of humans they had killed .... Why are such pictures of humans doing this with animals acceptable? |
I think we've had this conversation before, but in places like Zimbabwe they can use the paid hunting as a conservation tool. Rangers can single out an elephant that has been earmarked for culling and instead of being done by a ranger can charge tens of thousands of dollars. That money often helps to pay the rangers, provide income for the tribes that live on the reserves, etc etc. Yeah it may be unpalatable in varying degrees for many people, but it's how stuff works.
You've spent a lot more time in Africa than I have or am ever likely to. Do you reckon Mugabe would have the slightest interest in conserving wildlife for the sake of it? While these things happen there are people with incentive to protect and preserve the animals.
A couple of links.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2007/03/070315-hunting-africa.html
http://conservationmagazine.org/2014/01/can-trophy-hunting-reconciled-conservation/
Yes there's the reverse cas and also the emotive argument about the kind of people who do this. I don't think your approach is illogical, it's how you feel about the subject and there's not often a lot of logic in those situations.
In relation McGrath, I wouldn't be surprised if he got offered a significant discount or even got it for free so the Safari company could use the photos for publicity. Why would he take those photos? Because he would have been asked to pose by the guides so they could put the pics in their website gallery.
Anyway, I know this is an issue you feel really strongly about, I'm not trying to provoke a fight or get you to change your mind, just pointing out a few considerations for what they're worth.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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I think I'd rather be an elephant shot in the head than a cow having it's throat slit on a production line.
Any meat eater like me isn't in a place to criticise hunting or the like unless that animal is endangered and shouldn't be hunted in the first place or not treated humanely in life or death as we saw with the live baiting or ones being mistreated in captivity by owners.
I hate animal cruelty, wouldn't engage in trophy hunting and certainly would never shoot such a smart and sensitive animal like an elephant but I don't feel the need to completely demonise McGrath over this incident.
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| stui magpie wrote: |
I think we've had this conversation before, but in places like Zimbabwe they can use the paid hunting as a conservation tool. Rangers can single out an elephant that has been earmarked for culling and instead of being done by a ranger can charge tens of thousands of dollars. That money often helps to pay the rangers, provide income for the tribes that live on the reserves, etc etc. Yeah it may be unpalatable in varying degrees for many people, but it's how stuff works.
You've spent a lot more time in Africa than I have or am ever likely to. Do you reckon Mugabe would have the slightest interest in conserving wildlife for the sake of it? While these things happen there are people with incentive to protect and preserve the animals.
A couple of links.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2007/03/070315-hunting-africa.html
http://conservationmagazine.org/2014/01/can-trophy-hunting-reconciled-conservation/
Yes there's the reverse cas and also the emotive argument about the kind of people who do this. I don't think your approach is illogical, it's how you feel about the subject and there's not often a lot of logic in those situations.
In relation McGrath, I wouldn't be surprised if he got offered a significant discount or even got it for free so the Safari company could use the photos for publicity. Why would he take those photos? Because he would have been asked to pose by the guides so they could put the pics in their website gallery.
Anyway, I know this is an issue you feel really strongly about, I'm not trying to provoke a fight or get you to change your mind, just pointing out a few considerations for what they're worth. |
Yes we have Stui and probably will again 
The problem is that in places like Zimbabwe they do not use trophy hunting as a conservation tool - apart from the fact the country is horribly corrupt much of the killing for money occurs on " private " game reserves and many many of these breed animals for the sole purpose of allowing them to be hunted for money - and most of the hunters are septics!
No money made from these private reserves that enable trophy hunting is returned to wider animal conservation and very rarely does it benefit the local community.
Google canned hunting - it is truly appalling and for anyone who thinks it's cool to pat a lion cub consider what happens to that cub when it grows too big to be cute and cuddly for humans to pat - it is killed by a "hunter" - an animal raised and used to human contacts and confined 
Before our first trip to Africa we did a huge amount of research - we don't do tours ( I am far too anti social to be let lose on other unsuspecting folk) - it is just hubby and I in a hire car.
Because we don't do tours we have spent a lot of time with locals drinking and yabbering - they make a good point - how do you educate the locals to respect the wildlife - to not poach - to not kill for profit ( especially when so many are desperately poor and the encroachment of man on animal habitats means confrontation) when you allow the white man to pay money to kill them for fun??
Kenya which has outlawed trophy hunting for many a year has reaped a tremendous benefit from tourism ( and yes that has it's problems as well) - but the local people have come to appreciate what a wonderful natural resource they have in their beautiful animals and that they can respect them and protect them and still live well from the benefits of others doing the same and being willing to pay for the privilege of just observing these magnificent creatures in the wild.
Worth a read is the thoughts and work of Australians Damien Mander' - former Australian Royal Navy Clearance Driver and Special Operations military sniper - he is one of very few people I hold as a hero!!
Oh and I might add despite all our research - on our first trip we found ourselves staying at a place that despite insisting they didn't had hunters there which we discovered through trying to be " nice guests" and conversing with the Septics sitting at the next table - we left immediately blew our money and spent the night in the hire car in the bush - and damn it was cold!!!
I may be a fruit loop but I try to be a true to myself fruit loop 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
Last edited by Morrigu on Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Cheers Morrigu, I know what Canned hunting is without needing to google it and i don't like it.
I've never been interested in trophy hunting personally, but that canned hunting is the equivalent of having a drugged hooker dumped naked on your bed after already being paid and you claiming you spent hours seducing her.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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