What pisses you off?
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Pay that.
problem is, the evidence is ignored and refuted. Until you get past that and accept it, you can't start trying to fix it.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | David wrote: | Just seems like you're kind of dealing in simplistic stereotypes here – the hard-working aspirational Italian immigrant vs the out-of-control violent African youth. Of course there were Italian ne'er-do-wells, muggers and dole bludgers, too, as well as violent gangs – Mick Gatto and co. didn't spring from nowhere. And of course there was racism directed towards Italians that had nothing to do with how hard they did or didn't work.
We know that these characters exist in all immigrant communities, so what you really need are trends: are the proportion of teenage criminals higher in African communities than they are/were in other new immigrant communities? Are the proportion of people in stable jobs lower? To answer those questions, you need data, and if you have that data you need to understand why these things are happening and how they can be remedied.
The trouble here, I think, is that a lot of perception is shaped not by data or analysis, but rather by raw media reportage, which can (of course) be exaggerated and misleading, and prejudice, which we can all fall victim to whether we want to or not. |
I like your humanist viewpoint David, but I think there is an issue not being faced up to.
If we accept large numbers of refugees (as we should) from war torn and strife ridden parts of the world (as we should), especially from backward and ignorant (ie deeply religious) regions (ie, most of the middle East and Africa), we are likely to have to deal with serious social problems as a result. Crime, violence and ill treatment of women are some obvious examples. This is to be expected. However, it is not an argument against accepting refugees/migrants from these regions, but rather, an argument that we, as a relatively rich society, need to devote sufficient resources to support and assist these communities, as they struggle to adapt to living in a new and different society. If we simply allow ethnic/religious ghettos to emerge, cut off and isolated from the rest of us, then it is a recipe for disaster. So for me, the evidence of disproportional violence and crime from African and Middle Eastern communities, is not to be ignored or refuted. Rather it should be acknowledged, and then responded to with greater outreach and social policies to assist these obviously troubled communities. |
I think that’s a fair response. A more random geographical distribution rather than just packing immigrants off to the (literally isolating and ghettoising) outer suburbs would be a good start. And yeah, I suspect the stuff about suppressing ‘ethnic’ crime statistics – which I’ve never agreed with – is more about arse-covering for bad social policy than, say, reducing community tensions.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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Oh dear... "a relatively rich society" ??? Yeah, one that's spiraling into an irreversible mountain of debt!
We have people living on the streets, aboriginal communities living in squalor and youth unemployment and drug abuse at unprecedented level FFS!
There's no point doing your neighbors garden up when yours is a cess pit!
I hope that somebody with some idea gets into power soon or this place is going to reach a tipping point of no return.... if it hasn't already 
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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We do have Aboriginal communities living in squalor.
In your opinion, as someone who has worked in those communities, what's holding them down?
There's going to be lots of surface shit, but that's all symptoms. Treat the symptoms the illness remains unchecked. What is the problem?
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | David wrote: | Just seems like you're kind of dealing in simplistic stereotypes here – the hard-working aspirational Italian immigrant vs the out-of-control violent African youth. Of course there were Italian ne'er-do-wells, muggers and dole bludgers, too, as well as violent gangs – Mick Gatto and co. didn't spring from nowhere. And of course there was racism directed towards Italians that had nothing to do with how hard they did or didn't work.
We know that these characters exist in all immigrant communities, so what you really need are trends: are the proportion of teenage criminals higher in African communities than they are/were in other new immigrant communities? Are the proportion of people in stable jobs lower? To answer those questions, you need data, and if you have that data you need to understand why these things are happening and how they can be remedied.
The trouble here, I think, is that a lot of perception is shaped not by data or analysis, but rather by raw media reportage, which can (of course) be exaggerated and misleading, and prejudice, which we can all fall victim to whether we want to or not. |
I like your humanist viewpoint David, but I think there is an issue not being faced up to.
If we accept large numbers of refugees (as we should) from war torn and strife ridden parts of the world (as we should), especially from backward and ignorant (ie deeply religious) regions (ie, most of the middle East and Africa), we are likely to have to deal with serious social problems as a result. Crime, violence and ill treatment of women are some obvious examples. This is to be expected. However, it is not an argument against accepting refugees/migrants from these regions, but rather, an argument that we, as a relatively rich society, need to devote sufficient resources to support and assist these communities, as they struggle to adapt to living in a new and different society. If we simply allow ethnic/religious ghettos to emerge, cut off and isolated from the rest of us, then it is a recipe for disaster. So for me, the evidence of disproportional violence and crime from African and Middle Eastern communities, is not to be ignored or refuted. Rather it should be acknowledged, and then responded to with greater outreach and social policies to assist these obviously troubled communities. |
I think that’s a fair response. A more random geographical distribution rather than just packing immigrants off to the (literally isolating and ghettoising) outer suburbs would be a good start. And yeah, I suspect the stuff about suppressing ‘ethnic’ crime statistics – which I’ve never agreed with – is more about arse-covering for bad social policy than, say, reducing community tensions. |
Immigrants have always struggled to adapt to a new and different society. The majority do so through a fierce desire to better themselves and a very decent, very human desire not to abuse the hospitality of people who have taken them in. I really do not believe that African or Middle Eastern peoples are so very different from the Italians and Greeks and Yugoslavs escaping after their countries were ravaged by violence in WW2, the holocaust survivors from Hungary and Poland, the Vietnamese who came after their country was brutalized by a very nasty war. Many of those people saw terrible things. On these grounds alone, I do not think that crime and violence “is to be expected”, from African or ME people, or that it should require a lot more government spending than past migration waves.
The police will tell you that the first word which arises when they try to police Sudanese youths is “racism”. There are always selfish, oafish, violent people who treat every kindness as weakness, but who respect an honest, law-based, tough-minded approach to a social order which protects the weak from their crimes.
I think we would do well to start with that principle : liberty under the law is the main reason you came here. We inherited it and we cherish it, even if we can’t quite remember where it came from, or what it cost those who established and fought for it. As long as you cherish it too, you are welcome : but break our just laws, abuse our hospitality, and you will heartily wish you hadn’t.
Of course some help is desirable, as given today in the form of English lessons and temporary accommodation and income support. But so, too, is some deep education in the expectations that we rightly have of those to whom we offer sanctuary. That would benefit everyone except those who secretly dislike our way of life.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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I was taught from a early age that Australia is an amazing country and Australians are wonderful people. The idea that there may be communities in this country feeding their children a narrative about how this country is evil, decadent, racist and needs to be torn down disappoints me.
Australia isn't perfect but it's far better than most of the shit holes people have come from. |
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Dave The Man 
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | I was taught from a early age that Australia is an amazing country and Australians are wonderful people. The idea that there may be communities in this country feeding their children a narrative about how this country is evil, decadent, racist and needs to be torn down disappoints me.
Australia isn't perfect but it's far better than most of the shit holes people have come from. |
Just look at the Black Youths who beat up the Copper.
They should be send back to there Shitty Country where they belong
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I am Da Man |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| Skids wrote: | Oh dear... "a relatively rich society" ??? Yeah, one that's spiraling into an irreversible mountain of debt!
We have people living on the streets, aboriginal communities living in squalor and youth unemployment and drug abuse at unprecedented level FFS!
There's no point doing your neighbors garden up when yours is a cess pit!
I hope that somebody with some idea gets into power soon or this place is going to reach a tipping point of no return.... if it hasn't already |
Make no mistake Skids, compared to most of the world, Australia is a very rich society. That's why it's even more of a disgrace that we have homelessness and pockets of extreme poverty. While numerous multinational corporations operate here without paying any tax at all, successive governments will continue to claim there is a need to 'tighten our belts' and reduce welfare and social spending. This is a disgrace! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | Skids wrote: | Oh dear... "a relatively rich society" ??? Yeah, one that's spiraling into an irreversible mountain of debt!
We have people living on the streets, aboriginal communities living in squalor and youth unemployment and drug abuse at unprecedented level FFS!
There's no point doing your neighbors garden up when yours is a cess pit!
I hope that somebody with some idea gets into power soon or this place is going to reach a tipping point of no return.... if it hasn't already |
Make no mistake Skids, compared to most of the world, Australia is a very rich society. That's why it's even more of a disgrace that we have homelessness and pockets of extreme poverty. While numerous multinational corporations operate here without paying any tax at all, successive governments will continue to claim there is a need to 'tighten our belts' and reduce welfare and social spending. This is a disgrace! |
I don’t think there is any evidence that welfare spending can really prevent poverty (though it probably does put a floor under abject deprivation, which is why it is worth supporting).
I think we have more homelessness and poverty because we wrecked the housing market with absurd tax subsidies for “investors” (sic) at the same time as we allowed vast immigration (a million people into Melbourne in ten years). We also have more poverty because of family breakdown and a pervasive culture of selfish hedonism at virtually all levels of society, which our grandparents would have rejected but we now embrace like eternal children.
It’s true that some multinationals should pay more tax. But even if they did, it’s unlikely that this would alleviate the problems you identify.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Foreign investors buying up property is driving the market, not negative gearing, rents haven’t kept up with property values so it’s not really worth it now. We need to follow New Zealand’s new laws, no foreign buying policy.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | Skids wrote: | Oh dear... "a relatively rich society" ??? Yeah, one that's spiraling into an irreversible mountain of debt!
We have people living on the streets, aboriginal communities living in squalor and youth unemployment and drug abuse at unprecedented level FFS!
There's no point doing your neighbors garden up when yours is a cess pit!
I hope that somebody with some idea gets into power soon or this place is going to reach a tipping point of no return.... if it hasn't already |
Make no mistake Skids, compared to most of the world, Australia is a very rich society. That's why it's even more of a disgrace that we have homelessness and pockets of extreme poverty. While numerous multinational corporations operate here without paying any tax at all, successive governments will continue to claim there is a need to 'tighten our belts' and reduce welfare and social spending. This is a disgrace! |
I agree, and they also need to cut the ridiculous retirement packages for politicians and make them far more accountable for their spending.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| think positive wrote: | | Foreign investors buying up property is driving the market, not negative gearing, rents haven’t kept up with property values so it’s not really worth it now. We need to follow New Zealand’s new laws, no foreign buying policy. |
I think it is both, and I would be ok with a no foreign buyers policy ; but more than anything else it is the extraordinary surge of housing demand which arises when you enlarge a city by around 20% in ten years. Did people really vote for that, and the lifestyle consequences that ensued ? I am not anti-immigration, but that rate is insane.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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They certainly should have thought of the traffic situations before they let it happen, that’s for bloody sure!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Dave The Man
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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IKEA not paying Tax and Lying about it
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I am Da Man |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | | Foreign investors buying up property is driving the market, not negative gearing, rents haven’t kept up with property values so it’s not really worth it now. We need to follow New Zealand’s new laws, no foreign buying policy. |
It’s not A or B, but a combination of both. I don’t think it would hurt to cut down on foreign property buying, but ultimately it’s just one part of a broader problem – a system that fundamentally favours developers and landlords and neglects the interests of people who actually want to live in their own house. Get rid of foreign buyers and the price increase may slow somewhat, but the problem will still be there, because there are plenty of Australians who want to get into the investment market who will keep pushing up property prices on their own.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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