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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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warning: the following is a Very Long Post. We recommend that you come prepared with coffee and warm clothing.
| member34258 wrote: | All about timing David.
Why now? Why not 12 months ago when the NT government pleaded for support?
Why not at any time in the preceding decade? |
Oh, undoubtedly it's an election ploy, at least partially.
Doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do.
| Quote: | | Rudd "supporting" it is not relevant. If he gets in he will wind this back and make sure the power is put back in the hands of the communities, not the police or the army. |
Yeah, I agree completely member   Good ol' Kev will fix everything up. After all, he's shown such strong opposition to the whole policy in the first place!
| Omar wrote: | | Dave wrote: | | And clearly Noel Pearson has no idea what he's talking about... |
The Indigenous community is not homogenous, and there will be conservative, authoritarian minded Indigenous australians just as there are communal and tribal´ish (excuse the horrible expression) minded white people. There are gay people against gay marriage, this doesn´t mean anything except that diversity will always exist. |
No, I'm not saying Noel Pearson is aboriginal thus speaks for all aborigines, I'm using him as an example because he is an intelligent, educated guy who does have a strong concern in these areas. Now I don't know much about Pearson but he hardly fits the bill as a conservative mouthpiece for the Howard government. Why aren't his views being taken into consideration?
| Omar wrote: | | In any case, please, it´s the f#cking australian, it´s written and published by government drones. |
Now here here, lol. Look how many articles from The Age have been quoted in this thread. Fair's fair.
| Omar wrote: | | Why is it that you hold Aden to that sort of sceptical analysis, but accept that Howard is genuinely wanting to do something great for Indigenous people??? |
I don't know whether or not Howard genuinely wants to do something for the Aboriginal people. All I know is that Howard and Ridgeway are both politicians. As such, they have their party's interests at heart. All I'm saying is, I don't think Ridgeway is exactly the most unbiased commentator in this situation (although, as you fairly pointed out, his speech was made 2 years ago).
| Omar wrote: | | If you don´t think that Howard genuinely wants to do something great, then maybe you can finally get around to addressing my contention that ideas come before actions, and bad ideas cannot result in good outcomes. |
But who is to say that there were no ideas presented before this policy was presented? I may be wrong, but I doubt that Howard woke up one morning last week and decided "I'm going to save the aboriginal people"... this policy must have been discussed for some time, I would assume. And, who's to say that this is a bad idea, anyway? I think it's a good one, from the limited knowledge I have of it.
| Omar wrote: | Dude, i don´t know the exact reasons for what has happened to the various Indigenous nations, apart from a basic grasp of history which states that colonialism = $£$%^%%$-everything-up-for-benefit-of-colonial-power´ism. Let me try a few that i know:
1. Destruction of language
2. forcible removal from traditional lands
3. destruction of traditional religions as a result of this removal,
4. breakups of familes and communities throughout history (most recent ly in the disgusting stolen generation debacle),
5. conscious policies of rape and impregnation (trying to ´breed out´ the Indigenous blood),
6. the list goes on.
....Yea so i guess there a few valid CULTURAL things that need to be addressed, before imposing anything else. |
There's the reasons (well some of them, perhaps), but wherein lies the solution? Colonialism is a long-dead philosophy (and don't bring in Iraq please. I hear about that from the socialist alternative group on uni campus every tuesday ).
I think one of the big problems is the divide between Western culture and Indigenous culture. It seems like there's a bit of pull each way within today's Aboriginal communities - a desire to retain Indigenous culture and tradition, and a desire to integrate into Western culture. Now, I'm no expert on these things, but I reckon it'll only work if one or the other is chosen. Perhaps the Aboriginal people need to reject their culture and traditions completely? Such a suggestion is radical, no doubt, even unfair, but this is me trying to look for solutions.
Because, in my view, there was nothing wrong with pre-invasion indigenous culture. It was, indeed, as valid a society as any other, perhaps even better. The problem is, what we have today in Aboriginal communities isn't Indigenous Australian culture. It's a strange mess of two completely different cultures, and sure, some might suggest that could work in theory, but in practise it clearly hasn't. Blame colonialism - you're completely right. It IS colonialism's fault. But that was a long time ago, and rather than attributing blame, we have to be purely focussed on finding solutions.
| Omar wrote: | | PS. Rudd is a right-wing knob that i have no time for. His support for an iniative means as much to me as would the support of the Grand Ayatollah |
And yet - you, and everyone else who has posted in this thread, with the possible exception of me and/or Stui, will either vote for Rudd in the next election or give him your preferences. Isn't this a bit concerning, when he's basically backing Howard's policy in this area, something you all seem to vehemently oppose? I don't know, it all just seems a bit odd.
Rather than being the 'saviour' (as so many labor supporters seem to view him), it seems to me like Rudd is going to be 'Howard-lite'. Makes you wonder what the point is in voting at all :p
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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London Dave 
Ješte jedna pivo prosím
Joined: 16 Dec 1998
Location: Iceland on Thames
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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One man's opinion.
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I Hate Howard but he's right.
Warren Mundine
I AM a staunch and loyal Labor Party member, a former national president of the Labor Party and a proud and strong Aboriginal man.
Yes, I hate Prime Minister John Howard and want to see him voted out at the next federal election and a Kevin Rudd-led Federal Labor Government formed in 2007.
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After that opening, read the rest of the article.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21986091-5000117,00.html
| Quote: | | With apologies to former US President Bill Clinton, it's the children and the women stupid |
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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member34258
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s1964018.htm
| Quote: | | The childcare centre is closed. So the children, whose safety seems to be paramount, have no place to go and the place has been without a doctor, apparently, for the last two years during which time the Health Service at Mutitjulu has been in administration. |
The local council was taken over by the Federal Goverment 12 months ago. The place is in the hands of "administrators".
Not one cent has been put into services.
No doctors have been to see the community.
The vehicles, including the community bus, are sitting behind padlocked gates.
The feds have had control of this community for a year and they are far worse off. 2 questions need to be answered.
1.) Why will the current Goverment action be better than the 12 months of hell dished out to this community?
2.) Has this 12 months of inaction been implemented to justify the boots and all invasion currently taking place?
More interesting reading;
http://mwcnews.net/content/view/15140&Itemid=1
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/expert-critical-of-plan-for-child-abuse-checks/2007/06/26/1182623909303.html |
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EBB
Joined: 26 Apr 2007
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| London Dave wrote: |
'Policy' on the run...... but then again, policy has never been a real spike for Howard. Still can't believe he uttered 'Katrina'...what where his minders thinking? |
Some go as far to say 'Katrina' (New Orleans) was expressing ethnic cleansing. 
The irony; a day after Howard mentioned 'Katrina'..half of Victoria is under water.  (every politician needs and loves a diversion, this (coincidently) came just in time, unfortunately for those affected by the flood)
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understanding stuff, with endeavour to overstand.. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| EBB wrote: | | Some go as far to say 'Katrina' (New Orleans) was expressing ethnic cleansing. |
Some go as far to say that such people are complete nutcases.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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EBB
Joined: 26 Apr 2007
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| David wrote: | | EBB wrote: | | Some go as far to say 'Katrina' (New Orleans) was expressing ethnic cleansing. |
Some go as far to say that such people are complete nutcases. |
That's possible David, But would they be the same "complete-nutcases" who support WAR?
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understanding stuff, with endeavour to overstand.. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Maybe not, but I would be interested in seeing their tin-foil hat collection.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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EBB
Joined: 26 Apr 2007
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| David wrote: | | Maybe not, but I would be interested in seeing their tin-foil hat collection. |
LoL , you've been watching some funny movies.
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understanding stuff, with endeavour to overstand.. |
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member34258
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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I certainly did not take it to be "ethnic cleansing".
But now you point it out............ |
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sherrife 
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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Please, it´s nothing that sinister.
Just a simple consequence of politically insignificant people living in politically insignificant electorates.
Bush doesn´t hate black people, he just doesn´t need their vote. Liberal democratic principles at work
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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Proud Pies
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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