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Neil Appleby 
Joined: 11 Feb 1998
Location: Melbourne
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As for the education and hospitals, arent they mainly the states problems? If the Education system sucks (which it does) then isnt that the fault of the State Labor govts? (Who in turn try and blame all their problems on the previous govt from 10 years ago Rolling Eyes )
Gee......where do I start Eddie. You don't understand the system of educational funding in Australia do you?
The wonderful Ms Bishop is threatening to withhold the educational funding to the states at present unless they do as she wishes....introduce performance based pay. It's a system that's never worked anywhere else, but that doesn't stop the Liberals; anything to assist the captains of industry and the private schools with their snouts in the trough. It's not just appalling, it's a national scandal.
Hospital funding is also delivered via the Feds but I was mainly referring to Medicare something Mr Howard has been trying to eliminate ever since he came to power, like the unions.
Howard has a pathological hatred of the unions. He introduces an appalling piece of legislation to try to kill the unions and then, when Australians say they hate this and his backbenchers start getting twitchy, he caves in.
Why introduce this legislation anyway? Productivity? Not likely. Things were going along beautifully with collective bargaining.....few strikes, wages under control, unions under control.
We all know the real reason. To kill unions once and for all and to remain sweet with big business. If the weakest get screwed in the process, well, too bad, they probably live in Labor electorates anyway.
But we don't have long to wait now. A couple of months and this sorry, heartless government will be confined to history and the Liberal party will be all but extinct.
Just as it's been sensational watching Carlton wallow for the past five years, so it will be to watch the blood letting of a party on its death bed. |
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sherrife 
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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This is what right-wingers will never understand: Ideas come before action
If you have the wrong ideas, the action will rarely be right.
The reasons for this policy are obvious... It is a completely horribly proposal by a completely horribly party desperate to appear to be socially aware and proactive. Well we all call bullshit.
What the radical left (if they were allowed to have a voice in the media) or at least the labor party should be saying is that this sort of paternalism has never worked in the past, because it was bloody imposed on the people. The reason it was imposed in the past was because governments thought they knew best... well that worked out well didn´t it.
You simply cannot accept the dictum that ¨any action is better than nothing¨ because of the truism that progressive and positive action rarely results from conservative and cynical ideas.
This is why the bloody Iraq war failed, and was always going to fail. Getting rid of Saddam seemed like a decent goal (just ask many of the´moderate´ leftists around the world), but the IDEAS behind the action were always horrible, neo-conservative, self-interested, and imperialistic. The action was therefore NEVER going to improve the lives of the Iraqi people.
Lets learn from history for once.
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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Proud Pies 
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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Ahhhhhh i'm not the only one who sees the parallel with the Children Overboard Scam.....even the Indigenous Elders do
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/black-children-overboard/2007/06/26/1182623909042.html
This is 'black children overboard', say elders
| Quote: | | Five years ago, when local and visiting youths addicted to petrol fumes regularly terrorised this community, local elders say they could not even secure funding for street lights to make the community safer. When concerns emerged that a man was endangering their children, they could not get assistance from authorities to remove him. He is now long gone. But despite his departure, and the arrival of fume-less Opal fuel and a rehabilitation effort that doused the petrol sniffing crisis, a "national emergency" will now summon police and military. |
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
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Magpie 42 
Joined: 28 Nov 2003
Location: Victoria
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I just wonder how many people here are automatically opposing this because Howard is pushing it.
Before you say I'm just following Howard's views for the sake of it, I haven't actually been paying that much attention to what he's been saying... I watched the lateline report on Monday night (I think?), and several reasoned, and presumably unbiased, opinions were given.
And clearly Noel Pearson has no idea what he's talking about... 
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,21951636,00.html
For God's sake, even Rudd's supporting this. And you are all going to vote for this guy in the next election, I presume (or at least give him your preferences)?
'Black children overboard'. For Christ's sake.
| sherrife wrote: | Dave, you´re putting ends above means, and this is a horrible philosophy to adopt.
You CANNOT fix a social problem with more oppression. To put this another way, you cannot force people to take less drugs, to drink less, to abuse others less, etc. There are reasons that Indigenous people have reached their current situation, and these have to be addressed. |
What are the reasons? Please don't tell me that 'saying sorry to the stolen generations', or something, is the answer to this. Omar, you yourself have said before that the welfare of Australia's indigenous population is in a disgraceful state. So, surely you agree that something has to be done.
I've got my own theories. You've probably got yours. In my mind, the emphasis has to be on education... but, maybe other things need to come first before that, like ensuring that aboriginal children are growing up in safe environments.
Is it so horrible to look at ends above means? If we don't at least partially look at ends, then we'll continue going around in circles. I'm not saying that the 'means' should be disregarded, but at least look for some solutions.
| sherrife wrote: | Dave, how about you listen to some Indigenous people before you make pronouncements on what will fix their problems, or even worse, accept the pronouncements of others who want only to win a $£$%^%%$ election, not actually do anything to help these people.
From the words of the Indigenous Senator, Aden Ridgeway:
| Quote: | “It [the government] sees a distinction between addressing disadvantage on the one hand, and cultural issues on the other hand. It is a false dichotomy. The two are entwined.
A failure to recognise and embrace the cultural characteristics and the cultural capital that Indigenous people possess is one of the major barriers which excludes us. It limits our ability to participate. And it denigrates our greatest strength and asset – our culture” |
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And Aden Ridgeway isn't politically driven? Please.
His biases are far more obvious than those of Noel Pearson (does he have any ulterior motive to support Howard on this?), who is also indigenous.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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member34258
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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All about timing David.
Why now? Why not 12 months ago when the NT government pleaded for support?
Why not at any time in the preceding decade?
Rudd "supporting" it is not relevant. If he gets in he will wind this back and make sure the power is put back in the hands of the communities, not the police or the army. The Army! FFS.
I stated earlier this governments liking for the 50's. This is just Howard having a last fling at winding us back to that time. When White was right.
I guarantee your generation will be the ones dragged through the courts to settle this action by those affected.
A lot like the Stolen Children affair.
I note that 50 organizations met in Canberra today and put forward an alternative plan to solve this problem. The plan involved not one Army officer. But of course their plan was not formulated to win government. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Do you have any conditions I should know about? |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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State governments already have the power to remove children from their families when the children are in enough risk of harm.
Maybe if they weren't so sensitive to the potential "stolen children" thing, something would have been done long ago and this intervention wouldn't be needed.
My understanding is the Army is being used effectively as a peace keeping force, not to bulldoze communities. 7 news tonight showed a sit around meeting with tribal elders giving their point of view and locals and soldiers all sitting down together.
Of course some of the people are getting their backs up, no one likes being told you're bad parents, but their feelings come distant second to doing the right thing by the kids.
As far as I'm concerned, if kids need to be removed because they're being abised, then remove them. Deal with the left wing outcry, apply the necessary interventions such as education, counselling and if necessary criminal charges and return the kids when it's safe and not before.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Proud Pies
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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| stui magpie wrote: | State governments already have the power to remove children from their families when the children are in enough risk of harm.
Maybe if they weren't so sensitive to the potential "stolen children" thing, something would have been done long ago and this intervention wouldn't be needed.
My understanding is the Army is being used effectively as a peace keeping force, not to bulldoze communities. 7 news tonight showed a sit around meeting with tribal elders giving their point of view and locals and soldiers all sitting down together.
Of course some of the people are getting their backs up, no one likes being told you're bad parents, but their feelings come distant second to doing the right thing by the kids.
As far as I'm concerned, if kids need to be removed because they're being abised, then remove them. Deal with the left wing outcry, apply the necessary interventions such as education, counselling and if necessary criminal charges and return the kids when it's safe and not before. |
but don't wind it back in 6 months ........after an election has been held. These laws were being put in place for 6 months, the military presence was going to be there for 6 months.....
and ffs, remove the perpetrators, not the victims!
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| Dave wrote: | | And clearly Noel Pearson has no idea what he's talking about... |
The Indigenous community is not homogenous, and there will be conservative, authoritarian minded Indigenous australians just as there are communal and tribal´ish (excuse the horrible expression) minded white people. There are gay people against gay marriage, this doesn´t mean anything except that diversity will always exist.
In any case, please, it´s the f#cking australian, it´s written and published by government drones.
| Dave wrote: | And Aden Ridgeway isn't politically driven? Please.
His biases are far more obvious than those of Noel Pearson (does he have any ulterior motive to support Howard on this?), who is also indigenous. |
Those comments made by Aden Ridgeway were not in response to this ridiculous policy, they were made 2 years ago as a general strategic guideline. Thus this is not a short term electoral thing, but a long-term position on an issue that the senator holds close to his heart. In any case, what the hell Dave? Why is it that you hold Aden to that sort of sceptical analysis, but accept that Howard is genuinely wanting to do something great for Indigenous people???
If you don´t think that Howard genuinely wants to do something great, then maybe you can finally get around to addressing my contention that ideas come before actions, and bad ideas cannot result in good outcomes.
| Dave wrote: |
What are the reasons? Please don't tell me that 'saying sorry to the stolen generations', or something, is the answer to this. Omar, you yourself have said before that the welfare of Australia's indigenous population is in a disgraceful state. So, surely you agree that something has to be done.
I've got my own theories. You've probably got yours. In my mind, the emphasis has to be on education... but, maybe other things need to come first before that, like ensuring that aboriginal children are growing up in safe environments. |
Dude, i don´t know the exact reasons for what has happened to the various Indigenous nations, apart from a basic grasp of history which states that colonialism = $£$%^%%$-everything-up-for-benefit-of-colonial-power´ism. Let me try a few that i know:
1. Destruction of language
2. forcible removal from traditional lands
3. destruction of traditional religions as a result of this removal,
4. breakups of familes and communities throughout history (most recent ly in the disgusting stolen generation debacle),
5. conscious policies of rape and impregnation (trying to ´breed out´ the Indigenous blood),
6. the list goes on.
....Yea so i guess there a few valid CULTURAL things that need to be addressed, before imposing anything else.
I agree with your solution, education is of the highest priority, especially including access tom computers. No computers, no chance of rising above menial work, low wages, no development. BUT, and this is a big but, it has to be implemented genuinely, by people who really wish to invest the resources to get the job done. Not by a desperate government on the way out.
| Stui wrote: | State governments already have the power to remove children from their families when the children are in enough risk of harm.
Maybe if they weren't so sensitive to the potential "stolen children" thing, something would have been done long ago and this intervention wouldn't be needed. |
Stui mate, this is one of the most ignorant, disgusting things you have ever said. Jesus. It was done a long time ago remember? That ¨Stolen generation thing¨? That ´thing´ is one of the blackest marks on our history. Are we REALLY wanting to repeat that mistake again?
History matters dude, you cannot make oven jokes to a Jew (unless you´re very close friends), you cannot make slave jokes to an African American (ditto), and you cannot take Indigenous kids away from their parents without invoking the horror and fear of the stolen generation.
I´m amazed at the authoritarian, paternalistic shit coming out in this thread. You CANNOT oppress people into better conditions. You cannot force development onto people, you cannot force health on to people, you cannot force happiness on to people.
You can only provide them the most supportive, resource-rich environment possible so that they can find all these things themselves, if they so choose.
PS. Rudd is a right-wing prick that i have no time for. His support for an iniative means as much to me as would the support of the Grand Ayatollah
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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<deep breath>
Sherrife, old son, first thing i have to say to you is you are on friggin holidays in Spain FFS, get off the bloody computer and enjoy yourself. 
Second thing, and here's where I prepare for a barrage, I'm not a believer that the Stolen generation is as big an issue as it's made out to be. The government had a policy of removing indigenous children who were at risk, yes. The fact is that many of the aboriginal activists and advocates of the stollen generation have since been proven to have incomplete recollections. That happens to kids.
Being packed off from your home to some boarding house or foster home would be traumatic, but a kid wouldn't necessarily recall or understand that it was done to protect them or because their parents actually handed them in to get a better life.
To compare the jewish holocaust or the slave trade with removing children for their home for what was perceived as being for their own good, I find disgusting. Hitler wasn't trying to help the jews by wiping them out. 
And Proud Pies, my understanding is they're giving it 6 months to start with, that doesn't mean they'll stop it. Bit like Iraq (for a bad comparison). If they need to stay longer, they will regardless of who is in government.
Remove the perpetrators? &*( oath remove them, if you can figure out who they are. Remove them from the area, remove them from the gene pool and remove them from the population.
But if you can't get enough evidence to charge any people with child molesting, and the evidence suggests that their parents are, if not participating or condoning the activity, are allowing it to happen by negligence, then what choice do you have but to remove the children?
FFS, if it happened in a white housing commission district there wouldn't be a problem. to NOT remove the kids if they're at risk IS racism.
<breath again>
OK, Frank, Member, Omar, etc............start kicking.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Brewer's Droop 
HIC
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Location: Greater Albania
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Would think that statistically most child abuse happens in major cities. Better just remove all the children from them to be safe.
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The wheels on the bus go round and round, but still they are not as round as Perry |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Brewer's Droop wrote: | | Would think that statistically most child abuse happens in major cities. Better just remove all the children from them to be safe. |
Beacuse statistically most people live in major cities.
FFS, I'm not advocating that they go in there and pull kids out for the sake of it, that's close to the last resort. I was responding to the arguments about the stolen generation.
But thanks for your erudite contribution.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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Do some reading on aboriginal history Stui. You might also want to have a look at colonial and early post-federation government policy on aboriginal assimilation and general treatment and the mentality behind it before you reject out of hand the holocaust analogy. As for your comments regarding state governments and the stolen generation - aside from them being nothing but bullshit, you also don't seem to understand that many of these problems are occurring in the Northern Territory, the politics of which Howard can intervene in anytime he likes under the constitution.
Yes, something has to be done about child abuse in these communities. Howard is right, it is a national emergency. It has been for decades, and Howard has known about it but dismissed it as not being a significant issue that needs addressing since he was elected. The timing is all about politics.
If he was genuine about addressing the issue he would be working with the communities and their representatives, not imposing a solution on them - a solution that is dead in the water already because it fails to address many of the underlying issues that cause the abuse, and because it is completely ignorant of the impact of history. Omar is right. The idea of sending in troops, police and government officials to check on the parenting practices of people in indigenous communities as has been proposed is doomed to failure because of fears flowing from what has happened in the past. There are already reports of parents taking their kids into the bush out of fears of history repeating itself. Any fool could have foreseen this would happen and that it would be counter-productive.
This is a serious problem and deserves to be addressed in a serious fashion. Not turned into a political football or convenient wedge issue. |
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Brewer's Droop
HIC
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Location: Greater Albania
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| stui magpie wrote: |
But thanks for your erudite contribution. |
np
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The wheels on the bus go round and round, but still they are not as round as Perry |
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