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member34258
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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| Quote: | And how much tax payers money did the Bracks Labour government spend trying to push that toxic waste dump near Mildura?
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Howard has taught you well Grasshopper.
Never answer the question when the answer is untenable. Always look to deflect.
Used it many times himself, who could forget "Core promise" and "never ever GST"?
Thank god the FBI foiled the Kennedy airport bombings. Otherwise Howard would have scared his way into a 10 point lead! |
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member34258
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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| Joel wrote: | | member34258 wrote: |
I assumed you could join the dots for yourself without being instructed how to. |
I was just thought it would be nice to explain why when you post. The general audience isn't going to bother looking into it. |
My point of view is largely irrelevant Joel, as is yours.
I think most readers would know my feelings and I would not presume to imagine that my personal opinions could change one vote.
Those who are interested though can go and see for themselves other views. I facilitate that by posting links, not rants.
Those who do not feel the need to follow up my posts do not need to. The "general audience" as you refer to them, are a bit more intelligent than you seem to give them credit for. |
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London Dave 
Ješte jedna pivo prosím
Joined: 16 Dec 1998
Location: Iceland on Thames
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| stui magpie wrote: | | I've seen the unions abuse supposed OH&S issues for their own agenda far more often than I've seen them raise legitimate issues. |
Tell it to the widow. |
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Piethagoras' Theorem 
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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| stui magpie wrote: | | London Dave wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Joel and David, you're seeing a classic example of how the union propaganda machine works. |
You've obviously never had to retrieve the body of a co worker due to short cutting of safety standards, then attend his funeral and see his wife and kids a mess. |
No, I haven't, and never want to.
Unions played a key role in raising awareness of safety issues, particularly in mining and construction. As a result, we have legislation in place and government appointed agencies (both coalition federal and labour state) who police safety.
I've seen the unions abuse supposed OH&S issues for their own agenda far more often than I've seen them raise legitimate issues.
If an employee has concerns that an employer is short cutting OH&S standards, they can call the union (whether they are on an AWA or not) or (preferably) notify the responsible body.
Sorry, but I don't buy that reducing unions access to workplaces has a correlating effect of a reduction in OH&S standards. |
I'm with you on this Stui, being a construction worker both as an employee and now self employed, I've witnessed first hand the most militant of all unions the cfmeu (Construction Forestry, Mining and Energy Union or more popularly known as the Come &%%& My Employer Up Union lol) and how they work at times. Oh yeah, real upholders of OH&S Regulations, such as, stop work cos we're out of toilet paper, or stop work cos there's more workers on site than chairs in the smoko shed or stop work cos the phone lines down, I mean we wouldn't want to be caught in a situation where there's an urgent need for an ambulance cos amongst the 100 or so workers no one is willing to use their mobile phone to make that call while someone's sitting there with his intestines hanging out of his guts.
I also know as fact that on numerous occasions shop stewards have accepted under the table deals by builders to turn a blind eye on certain issues to help speed up progress. So who's the devil here, the builder or the union rep?
Unions do have a place but they're no guardian angels I can assure you.
Being self employed I no longer need to be a member of the union, under current laws they can not refuse my work on their sites because so but I choose to remain one only to save myself from all the bullshit, the snide remarks and just an overall unwillingness to cooperate and work as a team.
I can't afford to employ anyone because under their current EBA I have top pay for their travel allowance, site allowance, make contributions to their income protection and termination fund, LSL fund and pay a minimum $110 super regardless of wether it is more than 9 % of their gross salary or not, whichever is higher.
Hey, that's more work for me but one less employed person out there.
Sorry, I seem to have gone a little off track here, but anyways that's my rant for the day 
Accidents will happen, you only have to walk around any construction site be it union or non union, there are deathtraps everywhere
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Formally frankiboy and FrankieGoesToCollingwood. |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| member34258 wrote: | | Used it many times himself, who could forget "Core promise" and "never ever GST"? |
What I can't understand is that people always bring up the GST one...
Howard went to an election pretty much on the GST. Sure, he had said that he wouldn't introduce it, but it's not like he sneakily brought it in midterm. If people had been so unhappy with it, he would have undoubtedly been beaten in the 1998 election.
Labor supporters always look for a 'scare campaign' to accuse Howard of after he wins elections. In 2004, I was wondering what excuse they were going to pull out, and, unsurprisingly, the "Interest rates scare campaign" got a run in the aftermath.
I wonder if this workchoices thing is a 'scare campaign' in itself. Keep reporting negative news stories... and then tenuously link them to Workchoices legislation. It's not that people are stupid - it's just that most of us can't be bothered to intensely cross reference when we see a story. People skim through a lot. So, when this sort of thread comes up every week with the same title (relating it to workchoices), it's inevitable that a lot of people will start to think, even subconciously, that workchoices is pretty bad. Even if the stories in question DON'T have any link to the legislation.
The above comment about the GST is the same. The immediate impression I get when I hear about 'never ever GST' is that Howard promised that he wouldn't bring the legislation in, then snuck it in halfway through his first term. This was not the case, but I bet that a lot of people would think it was, just because it's repeated ad nauseum that way.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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member34258
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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You've caught me out David!
That or you give me way to much credit.
I think it may be the latter.
The only thing that makes any "scare campaign" on Work(NO)Choices, is the fact that every day another story surfaces about how the working man is being screwed over. If that scares you, so be it.
I notice that now evidence has surfaced about a Big business lobby group and their ambitions to blackmail the Labor Party into toeing the line.
Do you care enough to follow the link?
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s1950602.htm
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21901377-662,00.html |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| member34258 wrote: | | Quote: | And how much tax payers money did the Bracks Labour government spend trying to push that toxic waste dump near Mildura?
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Howard has taught you well Grasshopper.
Never answer the question when the answer is untenable. Always look to deflect.
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Which would be exactly what you did here?
| Quote: | Damn, just could not let this comment go, though I should.
Quote:
Joel and David, you're seeing a classic example of how the union propaganda machine works
Have you turned on your TV/Radio, or read a paper lately? Seen our (taxpayers) money at work?
I won't give you any more detail. Join the big, big, big dots! |
I made a comment about union propaganda, your response was to point at the howard government spending on Ad's. Standard deflection?
When I observed that Bracks spent money and followed it up by stating that all governments spend money trying to sell their point of view etc, ou pick the first part and point accuse me of spin?
Who's doing the spin here?
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Warwick Capper? (I think that was the wrong link, lol)
As for the other article, is it a surprise that this associaton wants to do their best to hang on to workchoices? By the sounds of things it's been very popular among employers because of the increased flexibility it has given them, and not just because they can now sack workers more easily, I'm sure (although even that does not necessarily have to be a bad thing).
What I gathered most from that article is that the union groups are trying to do what I was accusing you of potentially doing (using misrepresented facts to convince people of a certain point of view... although it sounds here like the unions are being far more free with the truth. You're just reporting the truth, but perhaps associating questionable implications, anyhow either way it should have a similar effect. The government policy ends up misrepresented, thus turning people against that government policy, and therefore that government.)
But it's always the way, and it happens on both sides of politics. Both parties will continue to try to make their policies seem as good as possible, while only finding the worst parts of the other's policies. I'm sure workchoices legislation has plenty of good points and undoubtedly some bad points as well. To truly judge the legislation's merit, we need to listen to both sides, try to tune out to the bulls**t and actually see what the legislation's real pros and cons are.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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member34258
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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Not the wrong link David. Just checking to see if anyone actually checks the links out.
Well done.
| Quote: | | As for the other article, is it a surprise that this associaton wants to do their best to hang on to workchoices? |
Of course it's no surprise. And I'm sure there is plenty more of this type of thing going on. Unfortunately up to now there has been a "watch out for the union media blitz" warning from the government, while the same government uses our money to blitz us with their point of view. Now the government supporters are doing much the same as the unions are doing, even going further with the suggestion of blackmail, and not a peep from Howard and co.
We are a democracy and both sides are entitled to fight as hard as possible for power. Within the law of course. And only one side has so far crossed that line. |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Joel and David, you're seeing a classic example of how the union propaganda machine works.Yes, there are legitimate cases of where people have been disadvantaged by workchoices however, most of the examples quoted have little detail about how workchoices actually caused the problem. |
None of the 200 who signed the petition were members of a Union
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The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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[quote="stui magpie]
Sorry, but I don't buy that reducing unions access to workplaces has a correlating effect of a reduction in OH&S standards.[/quote]
Then perhaps you should read the work of Professor Richard Jonston of QUT
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The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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| frankiboy wrote: |
Accidents will happen, you only have to walk around any construction site be it union or non union, there are deathtraps everywhere |
Need anyone say anymore.
Sort of kills off your argument
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The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Frank Stone wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Joel and David, you're seeing a classic example of how the union propaganda machine works.Yes, there are legitimate cases of where people have been disadvantaged by workchoices however, most of the examples quoted have little detail about how workchoices actually caused the problem. |
None of the 200 who signed the petition were members of a Union |
You have access to facts that weren't in the article then?
My point about how union propaganda works has nothing to do with whether the employers concerned in a particular instance were union members or not. The point is that they become aware of an instance that they can use to support their point of view, spin it and exagerate it while keeping facts that don't support their point conveniently out of the discussion.
Yes, politicians on both sides of parliament do the same thing, but people seem to expect it from politicians whereas many ill-informed people expect for some reason that the union movement is some pure group with high morals and motivation and believe every crock they publish.
I'm just saying they are at least as self serving as most and often more so.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| stui magpie wrote: | | I'm just saying they are at least as self serving as most and often more so. |
I thought that was kind of common knowledge, but maybe not 
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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member34258
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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| Quote: | | My point about how union propaganda works |
You can't say that without acknowledging the propaganda of the Liberal government.
And they do it with our money!
At least the unions use their own. |
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