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Joel 
Joined: 23 Mar 1999
Location: Mornington Peninsula
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| WhyPhilWhy? wrote: | Joel - ever run a large business where you have to sack some knob that does shit all, turns up late etc, then turns around and pulls unfair dismissal on you?
I have and its no fun at all - no business can afford people like that. |
Fair enough Steve, I'm just asking the questions. I'm no expert on this subject. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| WhyPhilWhy? wrote: | Joel - ever run a large business where you have to sack some knob that does shit all, turns up late etc, then turns around and pulls unfair dismissal on you?
I have and its no fun at all - no business can afford people like that.
And I've worked in small business - there are just as many knob bosses as there are knob workers and its generally the boss that holds the power. There are many ways for small (and large) businesses to be held to ransom - this is merely one, and I would suggest a relatively rare one.
Stui - no matter how you want to dress it up, people lost their jobs to other people who do the same work. Do you reckon they got more money? "Outsourcing" is just a pretty word it. |
Yeah, I'm not trying to dress it up or justify whether it's right or wrong, My main point was that what happened here, happened prior to workchoices.
If you're a director of a large company, there must have been occasions when outsourcing functions were discussed. Generally, it's when a larger company employs people to do a specialist "non-core" function and there are efficiences to be gained from contracting that function out. An example I've been involved with is Banks outsourcing their internal IT functions. It isn't always cheaper (but not usually more expensive) and you gain efficiences by not having peripheral's such as recruitment; training; management etc. You put an SDA in place with the supplier which hopefully gives you a more efficient operation.
Some people seem to think I'm John Howard in disguise or some rabid right winger with no compassion for people. I don't think I am.
Nor do I think Workchoices is perfect. It does tip the balance too far in favour of employers if those employers are prepared to really push the envelope.
Again, my point in defending Workchoices is that I continually see propoganda (and I call it that deliberately) blaming the current legislation for things that have been happening for years prior to the legislation coming in. Most people don't know shit about the changes to the legislaton so they swallow the rubbish.
And in relation to the unfair dismissal proceedings Nomadjack, the previous legislation didn't spell out clear processes such as three warnings. That was a matter of policy and precedent. The first part of the test was procedural fairness (whether the business followed their own process) and the second part was whether the decision to terminate was, considering all the factors, harsh, unjust or unreasonable.
The advantage a larger company has over a small business is that the larger company should have clear policies and procedures to follow in the case of misconduct. Small businesses often have nothing like that and unless they are a member of some small business association, have minimal access to advice. The IR reform act that was in place prior to 1996, exempted business of less than 15 employees from unfair dismissal proceedings. All workchoices did was enlarge the size of the exempt group.
I would expect a supermarket chain would employ more than 100 people overall so unless these guys were casuals (and therefore not subject to unfairt dismissal anyway), tell me how the hell workchoices made this happen?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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