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sherrife 
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| David wrote: | | London Dave wrote: | | David wrote: | | ...although I am a bit of a critic of the innocent victim argument. |
most people are, until they're the innocent victim of course! |
My point is that, yes, it would be terrible to be killed for something you didn't do, but what is the alternative? Life in prison.
I'm sorry, but I don't know that that is much better. |
Of course you don't you're not the one dying. Where there is life there is hope.
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The fact is, if there is a serious issue with innocent people being charged (one would think that our legal system is too advanced for that to happen more than in a few cases) then THAT is the problem that must be dealt with, not the actual penalty. If opponents of the death penalty use the innocence argument, then their argument is flawed, in my opinion.
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Hold on, so you agree that the system is flawed, we need to fix it, but you still think that it's a non-sequitor that:
a) the system is flawed and sometimes convicts innocents,
b) we don't want to kill innocents
Conclusion: we do not use the death penalty?
There are more arguments against the death penalty than simply the innocent victim argument. I think people need to look at what we aim to achieve in society with our prison system. what the victims themselves want, does killing the perpetrator eliminate any opportunity for what could be a very healing dialogue in the future between them and the victims, etc.
And it actually has zero force as a deterrent, life in jail isn't all that attractive either, yet people still commit crimes. If you thought you were going to get arrested, you wouldn't do it in the first place.
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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Bucks5 
Nicky D - Parting the red sea
Joined: 23 Mar 2002
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Some other considerations you might want to also factor into the death penalty equation.
- Most child sexual abuse is done by a family member, friend or someone known to the child
- There are several levels of 'sexual assualt' ranging from inappropriately touching through clothing to penetration.
- Men have been convicted of possessing child pornography for taking/possessing photos of clothed children playing at the beach, at school etc.
- Older girls (12-15yo's) could potentially have consensual sex then cry rape.
So who should be put to death and who would you try to rehabilitate? Sounds like you might want to put some parameters around this. eg. Death would apply when it involves a stranger who sexually penetrates a child younger than 13.
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How would Siri know when to answer "Hey Siri" unless it is listening in to everything you say? |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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| joffa corfe wrote: |
PS Very much enjoying the new ignore feature  [/color][/b] |
Would that be the ignore dealing with the actual issue feature? |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| sherrife wrote: | | David wrote: | | London Dave wrote: | | David wrote: | | ...although I am a bit of a critic of the innocent victim argument. |
most people are, until they're the innocent victim of course! |
My point is that, yes, it would be terrible to be killed for something you didn't do, but what is the alternative? Life in prison.
I'm sorry, but I don't know that that is much better. |
Of course you don't you're not the one dying. Where there is life there is hope.
| Quote: |
The fact is, if there is a serious issue with innocent people being charged (one would think that our legal system is too advanced for that to happen more than in a few cases) then THAT is the problem that must be dealt with, not the actual penalty. If opponents of the death penalty use the innocence argument, then their argument is flawed, in my opinion.
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Hold on, so you agree that the system is flawed, we need to fix it, but you still think that it's a non-sequitor that:
a) the system is flawed and sometimes convicts innocents,
b) we don't want to kill innocents
Conclusion: we do not use the death penalty?
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No, I didn't say the system WAS flawed. I said that IF it was flawed, then the flaw is what needs to be dealt with, not the punishments.
I don't want to not just kill innocent victims... I wouldn't want any innocents convicted at all. While I agree that life in prison is better than nothing, it is still a terrible way to live. Imagine being totally deprived of freedom and social relationships for the rest of your life - are you not concerned about inflicting THAT on an innocent person?
| sherrife wrote: | | There are more arguments against the death penalty than simply the innocent victim argument. I think people need to look at what we aim to achieve in society with our prison system. what the victims themselves want, does killing the perpetrator eliminate any opportunity for what could be a very healing dialogue in the future between them and the victims, etc. |
I agree, there are several arguments against the death penalty, and indeed I am hardly a big supporter of capital punishment myself. I still argue that the innocence argument is a flawed one, all the same.
| sherrife wrote: | | [And it actually has zero force as a deterrent, life in jail isn't all that attractive either, yet people still commit crimes. If you thought you were going to get arrested, you wouldn't do it in the first place. |
This is probably one of the strongest arguments against the death penalty, as I too doubt that it offers much deterrent.
deletion of deleted quotes by BBMODS
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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leelee
Live. Love. Race.
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Location: Home...
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Kids should be allowed to browse the toy section in safety... heaven knows when i was a kid my parents would leave me there while they used to go looking at camping stuff... and even more boring stuff...
everything has change so much now... nobody is safe...
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Dale61
You can't have manslaughter without laughter.
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Location: /home/room/chair
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A 22-yo Indian exchange student has been arrested. He has only been in the country for less than 12 months, and police got him while he was working at his part-time job at a Clayton supermarket.
Now, they'll revoke his student visa, and thus, making him ineligible to remain in the country so he'll have to be deported without doing time.
At least now he won't qualify for employment at a Telstra Call Centre ...... or will he?
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London Dave 
Ješte jedna pivo prosím
Joined: 16 Dec 1998
Location: Iceland on Thames
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| nuxta wrote: | | London Dave wrote: | Wrong. Lock em up forever... too many examples of innocent people copping it due to lynch mob mentality. There's enough miscarraiges of justice to at least have the opportunity to right wrongs.
I'll ak you this, if your wife or child was wrongly convicted, would you pull the switch? |
I will re-post my earlier sentiments which more than explains my beliefs on this topic.
We are worried about killing innocents by mistake and today with all our forensic sciences and modern investigation techniques it shouldn't be an issue. Im not talking about just killing them based on emotion, what I am saying is when we are 100 per cent sure of their guilt we should execute them without delay.
As for the question could you pull the plug and do the killing?, I say it would be a job I would not be uncomfortable doing. As long as the correct due process is followed and guilt is 100% proven then I am all for it. |
I know your beliefs, answer the question.
If your wife was framed by me and me and my friends have perjured our collective butts off to have her sentenced to death for killing your child. Every court of appeal was exhausted, and she is still found guilty, and sentenced to hang. (This is the 100% guilty you defined). Would you pull the switch to kill her? You can either answer yes, or squib it and avoid the question by explaining your beliefs or some such again, i.e. that means no. |
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joffa corfe
PREMIERS 2010
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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Dirty vile stinking drunks kill innocent people on our roads daily and our attitude is ah well bad luck.. sad stuff your time must of been up you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
If a child is sexually assaulted by a freak or worse even murdered and found guilty we jump up and down when some of us want the bastard exterminated ?
What value are our children ?
The whole thing kind of reflects what a sick and sorry society we all live in!!
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Football is Greatness
http://youtu.be/tJwoKbPOsQE |
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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Personally i think it's sick to want to kill another human being. And i don't think its obviously less sick than wanting to rape another being, being it adult or child.
I see them both as futile, self-mutilating acts of revenge and/or frustration.
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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Pa Marmo
Side by Side
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617
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| London Dave wrote: | I know your beliefs, answer the question.
If your wife was framed by me and me and my friends have perjured our collective butts off to have her sentenced to death for killing your child. Every court of appeal was exhausted, and she is still found guilty, and sentenced to hang. (This is the 100% guilty you defined). Would you pull the switch to kill her? You can either answer yes, or squib it and avoid the question by explaining your beliefs or some such again, i.e. that means no. |
Your playing the clown now LD, trying to intimidate and make your self look the big man by saying if I dont answer the way you would like me to Im a squib. Your argument is stupid, as I have stated already 100% guilty. 100% guilty does not mean some dill and his cohorts trump up evidence it means no doubt caught in the act, hand on the gun, pants around the ankles guilty.
To answer your question so as to end this, If my wife, daughters, family members or close friends 100% done something like this I would pull the lever as that is Gods way.
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Genesis 1:1 |
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member34258
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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Nuxta, I'll put this link up again, because a lot of people on this site were 100% guilty and were destined for death.
Make no mistake, the courts had found them 100% guilty and passed the death penalty. Lucky for them there were some "do-gooders" around to help find out that they were 100% innocent.
http://www.insideout.org/documentaries/dna/thestories.asp |
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Dale61
You can't have manslaughter without laughter.
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Location: /home/room/chair
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| nuxta wrote: |
To answer your question so as to end this, If my wife, daughters, family members or close friends 100% done something like this I would pull the lever as that is Gods way. |
So it's not the way you think then?
You would do it because you believe it is the way that some mythical being would have done it?
How do you know for sure that it should be done that way? Let me guess, you read it in a book? Have you ever met this mythical being?
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Pa Marmo
Side by Side
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617
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I haven't met you either Dale but I believe you exist, and Ive only learned about you on a web site.
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Genesis 1:1 |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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[quote="nuxta"] | London Dave wrote: |
To answer your question so as to end this, If my wife, daughters, family members or close friends 100% done something like this I would pull the lever as that is Gods way. |
Not a religious person myself, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading or hearing something along the lines of thou shalt not kill? Or was there a qualifier somewhere in the bible that my dear old sunday school teacher didn't tell me about. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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It's not really a contradiction, as the Torah clearly sanctions capital punishment, and for many different crimes. I assume that the commandment only refers to murder committed by the individual. Krzystof Kieslowski's masterpiece A Short Film About Killing deals specifically with this commandment, arguing that the two are essentially the same in the long run, although I still believe there is an important distinction between state-sanctioned execution and murder.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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