IRAQ
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joffa corfe
PREMIERS 2010
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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| member34258 wrote: | | Quote: | | To be fair Jacqui Australia has been in peacetime since 1945 |
Korea? Vietnam?
If we aren't under attack we go looking for conflict wherever we can find it. |
To appease the American empire ?
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Proud Pies 
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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I was about to same the thing member. Not only Korea and Vietnam, but we were also part of the 1st Iraq War, then there was East Timor as 'Peace Keeping Forces', then Afghanistan and the 2nd Iraq War, not to mention the other places, including, the Pacific Islands were they have been sent as Peace Keeping Forces over the past 60 years. They are all conflicts. They may not be out and out war and we may not be part of the war, but they are conflicts.
As I said, when I joined and when my ex joined. We never thought that we would see conflict. I was lucky not to. (eddiesmith, take not - i did not say i | Quote: | | joined hoping not to encounter any combat |
my words were actually that it never entered my mind.
I can tell you that my ex has Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from his 6 months in Iraq. I don't know what he saw, but he was Deputy Mayor of Iraq for that time. He was the Military mayor (they had 3 Deputy Mayors - the Civilian Iraqi who was Deputy Mayor was murdered during his time there).
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| joffa corfe wrote: | For those who a still undecided about Americas involvement in Iraq and for those who have pay television.
Last night i watched a gruesome documentary called Baghdad ER all about the emergency operation rooms for American Soldiers and the Coalition Forces who are injured and killed whilst fighting the insurgence.
It brings home the message what another stupid bloody mess the yanks have dragged everyone into...i have never seen such craziness!! |
| joffa corfe wrote: | what i saw on this documentary was pure mayhem that one can only describe as some type of living hell...young man with intestines hanging out, guys on stretchers with both limbs missing, one guy had a hole so big in his foot you see the operating doctors hand dissapear inside it, guys with hands blown apart it was sickening footage.
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Oh, and all that time I was thinking war was like a 50's adventure movie...
We live in an age where we all should be fully educated about the horrors of warfare, so you would hope that everyone who supported it (and went over and fought) actually knew what was going to happen. On the other hand, anyone who opposed the war simply because they were 'anti-war' also had their heads screwed on wrong, as under that logic they also would have opposed a necessary war, such as WW2.
I personally would never join the armed forces because I realise that I would stand a good chance of being sent to a conflict, and thus being killed. May sound cowardly, but I value my life too much.
| member34258 wrote: | | joffa corfe wrote: | | To be fair Jacqui Australia has been in peacetime since 1945 |
Korea? Vietnam?
If we aren't under attack we go looking for conflict wherever we can find it. |
So, in other words, you are an isolationist who would prefer the government "not to meddle in other countries' affairs".
The first Gulf War, our activities in the pacific region, and Vietnam were defending other countries from attack or civil war. Yes, obviously, we had ulterior motives, but we were still achieving (or trying to achieve) what would be a positive end goal. Kuwait was saved from invasion by a dictator, who would have then controlled a large amount of the world's oil (and potentially moved on to Saudi Arabia). Australian forces presumably stopped a lot of carnage in the various Pacific islands (and I cannot see how someone would have a serious problem with that), and South Vietnam got f***ed up because of our failure to stop the communist invasion of that country.
The trouble with this current war is that not only is everything a bit shady, it has been poorly executed. Yes, far be it from such an experienced military adviser as myself to shake my finger at those amateurs in the US government, but there seems to be little doubt that they have gone about it the wrong way.
I'll hazard a guess that the reason is that the US is trying to fight a conventional war against an unconventional opponent. The actual 'war' was over almost four years ago, the issue is that the army is fighting against various groups and organizations who have no big leader, and who use surprise tactics. Unfortunately, I haven't heard any suggestions of how it could have been done better.
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eddies bank balance
evolving-unlimited-intellect
Joined: 27 May 2004
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| David wrote: | | I personally would never join the armed forces because I realise that I would stand a good chance of being sent to a conflict, and thus being killed. May sound cowardly, but I value my life too much. |
Yes, you do sound cowardly. However, I personally would never join the armed forces because I have a - unfavorable opinion of WAR!
(so david, who is at wrong here, you or me?)
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eddies bank balance
evolving-unlimited-intellect
Joined: 27 May 2004
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| David wrote: |
Kuwait was saved from invasion by a dictator, who would have then controlled a large amount of the world's oil (and potentially moved on to Saudi Arabia). |
..if / but / could've / DIDN'T!
| David wrote: | | The trouble with this current war is that not only is everything a bit shady, it has been poorly executed. Yes, far be it from such an experienced military adviser as myself to shake my finger at those amateurs in the US government, but there seems to be little doubt that they have gone about it the wrong way. |
| David wrote: | | Unfortunately, I haven't heard any suggestions of how it could have been done better. |
Maybe you can tell us how to do it better before the U.S.A nominate their next target.
| David wrote: | | I'll hazard a guess that the reason is that the US is trying to fight a conventional war against an unconventional opponent. The actual 'war' was over almost four years ago, the issue is that the army is fighting against various groups and organizations who have no big leader, and who use surprise tactics. |
Wrong! Even before the war, they told us, "urban warfare" would be their hardest battle.
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LeonMcS 
Only one says Buckley on command...
Joined: 29 Sep 2003
Location: Western Australia
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From eddiesmith
| Quote: | | ...get a medal and recognition but never actually do anything? |
Why not, Paul Collingwood did. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| eddies bank balance wrote: | | David wrote: | | I personally would never join the armed forces because I realise that I would stand a good chance of being sent to a conflict, and thus being killed. May sound cowardly, but I value my life too much. |
Yes, you do sound cowardly. However, I personally would never join the armed forces because I have a - unfavorable opinion of WAR!
(so david, who is at wrong here, you or me?) |
neither.
However, if Australia was under serious threat, and both of us still refused to join the armed forces (presuming we were needed), we would both be wrong. How about that?
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joffa corfe
PREMIERS 2010
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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| David wrote: | | eddies bank balance wrote: | | David wrote: | | I personally would never join the armed forces because I realise that I would stand a good chance of being sent to a conflict, and thus being killed. May sound cowardly, but I value my life too much. |
Yes, you do sound cowardly. However, I personally would never join the armed forces because I have a - unfavorable opinion of WAR!
(so david, who is at wrong here, you or me?) |
neither.
However, if Australia was under serious threat, and both of us still refused to join the armed forces (presuming we were needed), we would both be wrong. How about that? |
Im getting mixed messages here David....So if Your country came under attack/invasion you would consider it your right not to defend ? and yet you talk so gallantly on other countries / wars
Secondly i pose this question to you...what is Australia doing in Iraq ?
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~Madness~ 
...The Cat...
Joined: 29 May 2001
Location: Melbourne, Vic, Au
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| LeonMcS wrote: | From eddiesmith
| Quote: | | ...get a medal and recognition but never actually do anything? |
Why not, Paul Collingwood did. |
Okay, now THAT is funny!
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| joffa corfe wrote: | | David wrote: | | eddies bank balance wrote: | | David wrote: | | I personally would never join the armed forces because I realise that I would stand a good chance of being sent to a conflict, and thus being killed. May sound cowardly, but I value my life too much. |
Yes, you do sound cowardly. However, I personally would never join the armed forces because I have a - unfavorable opinion of WAR!
(so david, who is at wrong here, you or me?) |
neither.
However, if Australia was under serious threat, and both of us still refused to join the armed forces (presuming we were needed), we would both be wrong. How about that? |
Im getting mixed messages here David....So if Your country came under attack/invasion you would consider it your right not to defend ? and yet you talk so gallantly on other countries / wars |
Joffa, you misunderstand.
Both EBB and I refuse to join the armed forces because of, respectively, opinion and self-preservation. I was saying that that is acceptable in both cases, because we are not required to fight anyhow. There are enough Australians at the moment who (God knows why) are quite willing to join the army.
However, if we became involved in a war in which Australia was directly under threat, and we were required to fight for our country, it would be wrong not to do so - we would be basically asking someone else to fight and die for us, which is pure selfishness.
I refuse to employ the conscientious objector line, especially in the case of Iraq, because I realise that it doesn't matter whether I believe it is a 'just' war or not, I would still not want to fight it. While I cannot speak for EBB, I believe he has a very similar position - after all, he said that he opposes 'war' in itself. Not only would most sane people say the same anyhow, he is not allowing for the potential of a necessary war, something that can most certainly occur, e.g. WW2 as I mentioned above.
| Joffa Corfe wrote: | | Secondly i pose this question to you...what is Australia doing in Iraq? |
Supporting the United States, who in turn are there to support the new Iraqi government. I doubt that it would make all that much difference if we left or not, but it's more the principle that's important.
It's a bit late to run off on the Iraqi people now. Like it or not, the USA (and the other countries involved) sort of committed themselves when they dropped bombs on Baghdad and put a new government in place. If they were to leave now, they would be leaving a pretty big mess, and have achieved barely anything (especially if the 'insurgents' regained control of the country). By logical progression, this would mean that thousands of people would have died for nothing. Perhaps they have anyway.
So, I believe that it is a good thing that Australia is in Iraq at the moment. Whether we should have gone there in the first place will be judged by history.
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Brewer's Droop
HIC
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Location: Greater Albania
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It's time to "cut and run". We and the Yanks have cut and run from every conflict since WW2. Why would Iraq be any exception? It's just a matter of time.
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joffa corfe
PREMIERS 2010
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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| David wrote: | | joffa corfe wrote: | | David wrote: | | eddies bank balance wrote: | | David wrote: | | I personally would never join the armed forces because I realise that I would stand a good chance of being sent to a conflict, and thus being killed. May sound cowardly, but I value my life too much. |
Yes, you do sound cowardly. However, I personally would never join the armed forces because I have a - unfavorable opinion of WAR!
(so david, who is at wrong here, you or me?) |
neither.
However, if Australia was under serious threat, and both of us still refused to join the armed forces (presuming we were needed), we would both be wrong. How about that? |
Im getting mixed messages here David....So if Your country came under attack/invasion you would consider it your right not to defend ? and yet you talk so gallantly on other countries / wars |
Joffa, you misunderstand.
Both EBB and I refuse to join the armed forces because of, respectively, opinion and self-preservation. I was saying that that is acceptable in both cases, because we are not required to fight anyhow. There are enough Australians at the moment who (God knows why) are quite willing to join the army.
However, if we became involved in a war in which Australia was directly under threat, and we were required to fight for our country, it would be wrong not to do so - we would be basically asking someone else to fight and die for us, which is pure selfishness.
I refuse to employ the conscientious objector line, especially in the case of Iraq, because I realise that it doesn't matter whether I believe it is a 'just' war or not, I would still not want to fight it. While I cannot speak for EBB, I believe he has a very similar position - after all, he said that he opposes 'war' in itself. Not only would most sane people say the same anyhow, he is not allowing for the potential of a necessary war, something that can most certainly occur, e.g. WW2 as I mentioned above.
| Joffa Corfe wrote: | | Secondly i pose this question to you...what is Australia doing in Iraq? |
Supporting the United States, who in turn are there to support the new Iraqi government. I doubt that it would make all that much difference if we left or not, but it's more the principle that's important.
It's a bit late to run off on the Iraqi people now. Like it or not, the USA (and the other countries involved) sort of committed themselves when they dropped bombs on Baghdad and put a new government in place. If they were to leave now, they would be leaving a pretty big mess, and have achieved barely anything (especially if the 'insurgents' regained control of the country). By logical progression, this would mean that thousands of people would have died for nothing. Perhaps they have anyway.
So, I believe that it is a good thing that Australia is in Iraq at the moment. Whether we should have gone there in the first place will be judged by history. |
Iraq ? are you that ignorant David!! and i ask that without any personal vidictiveness....are you not aware that the insurgence is comming from Iran and Syria as well as within Iraq ?
This coflict will not be won!!
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Nutmeg 
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Preston
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WW2 was 'necessary' was it? Dave, which weeties packet are you getting your history info from bro??
Self-preservation over actual ethical thought processes - in the case that both you and EBB refuse to fight, he shows that he has engaged with the issue, you are simply selfish. My father's number was called up for Vietnam and was taken to court as a CO. Not only is he a pacifist, he disagreed with the reasons Aus was going there to fight. THis is a different question to whether you would defend yourself if you personally in your home, were threatened. The closest we've come to 'war' in this country was the bombing of Darwin.
"Are you a pacifist?"
"No sir, I'm not a pacifist.......I'm a coward"
(Monty Python)
PS Dave, there is a massive shortage in people joining the defence forces thus they've started relaxing the constraints on joining.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Nutmeg wrote: | | WW2 was 'necessary' was it? Dave, which weeties packet are you getting your history info from bro?? |
Perhaps I am taking a simplistic (albeit generally accepted) view of history, in using WW2 as an example. In that case, you had a couple of aggressive countries that were looking to invade other countries around them. Japan, if they could have, would have invaded us. My only point (and it is quite an easy one to understand) is that war can be necessary in certain cases, for example if your country is facing the threat of invasion. Also, even if we hadn't been under direct threat, to have let Adolf Hitler do what he wanted in Europe (meanwhile getting rid of as many Jews as possible), would have been disastrous.
The country that initially declared war was Great Britain. So, my question is, do you think it was necessary for them to do so? Or, perhaps they should have just listened to Chamberlain and stayed out of the whole thing?
| nutmeg wrote: | | Self-preservation over actual ethical thought processes - in the case that both you and EBB refuse to fight, he shows that he has engaged with the issue, you are simply selfish. |
Well, I could make a case that we are ALL essentially selfish, but that's for another time. What do you mean EBB has engaged with the issue? He said, and I quote, "I have an unfavourable view of war".
Absolute genius. Of course, morons like me support war and think it's a great thing 
Anyhow, who said that I was not thinking ethically? I would not support a war that I thought to be unethical, and neither would I fight in it if I had the choice. And yes, For those reasons, and not just self-preservation.
Oh, and by the way, just while we're discussing ethics, I wonder if your father cared about the people of South Vietnam that were in the process of being invaded? Oh, now I remember, he was a pacifist, so that's alright.
| nutmeg wrote: | | PS Dave, there is a massive shortage in people joining the defence forces thus they've started relaxing the constraints on joining. |
Well, at least they're not literally beating down doors begging people to join yet....
| joffa corfe wrote: | Iraq ? are you that ignorant David!! and i ask that without any personal vidictiveness....are you not aware that the insurgence is comming from Iran and Syria as well as within Iraq ?
This coflict will not be won!! |
Um, I'm not sure I remember where I said that the insurgency was purely Iraqi, but I'll grant you this - no, I don't think the conflict will be won either. That, however, does not mean that the withdrawal of Australian troops is at all a good or ethical thing to do.
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Collingpie
Joined: 28 Jan 2007
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At the risk of going out on a limb, I'm fully supportive of why we are in Iraq. It's just as necessary as any other war, just different. We are fighting a non-conventional enemy though. An enemy that wants to destroy everything we stand for, even this very site. They do not have a nation, or an organised army or an elected government. The common thread is their God. Any brief study of their religion will show that theirs is not the most friendly God you could pick.
Of course the downside to all the focus being on Iraq is that it takes the focus off Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Chechnya, The Phillipines, Nigeria, Venezuela, Afghanistan, Palestine, Malaysia, Indonesia etc etc.
The war did not end four years ago. It probably started before our grandparents were born. It'll probably still be going when our unborn grandchildren are old enough to vote.
Who doesn't value their life ? But if it comes down to them or us well, I know what side I'll be on. And if it means a few nukes are let loose again, then so be it. If it means that my unborn grandchildren can live in the same sort of security that we have enjoyed thus far then it's better than them never being born at all.
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