#25 Josh Fraser

[Cannibal]

A couple of people have pointed out that Josh is still only 22 and will be 23 when next season starts. It's a commonly acknowledged fact that ruckmen don't mature until they are 25; it takes that long before they develop the full range of skills to handle the position. If you compare Josh now (22 202cm 97kg) to say, Clark Keating (28 197cm 102kg) or Steven King (25 - 26 in Nov - 202cm 105kg), then it's pretty clear that the only difference is a bit of weight and another couple of years of experience (during which time he will put on that weight).

I am always somewhat flabbergasted that people can make such profound judgements that the young bloke is not up to it, when he hasn't matured. For me, I think he is pretty obviously going to become as much a key match winner for us in 2006 as Keating has been for Brisbane the last three years and King for Geelong this year. It is simply foolish to think Josh can fully match these guys whilst he's still developing.

The only thing I noticed that he seemed to be doing wrong this season was a tendency to jump slightly too early at centre bounces. He was obviously trying just a little bit too hard to compensate for his lack of weight by out-leaping his opponent. Around the ground, though, his mobility more than compensates for that centre bounce weakness. However, in time, maybe another year, he'll get his timing right and will out-jump most of his opponents.

MM said a couple of weeks ago about both Josh and Guy Richards that we are going to have a bloody magnificent pair of ruckmen in a couple of years! And that they would be key players for several years after.

[Joel]

Sultan of Spin, we'll have to wait and see.

Cannibal, I hope he will, but I don't want to see him taking backwards steps along the way. He has made plenty of progress, but he didn't really stamp himself on any games this year, when he has done so before.

Having said that, I want to give him time, because I know he has the ability to be a great player, not just a good one. I just want to see him play quality football on a consistent basis, rather than twice a year.

[3rd degree]

Joel, Lade is not a better ruckman than Fraser. He looks like a country cop who spends all day sitting on his arse with a speed gun.

[Joel]

http://www.footywire.com/fw/web/ft_players

Josh: Total Hitouts - 236 this year

That's an average of 13.1 a game. Fraser got 17 goals.

Lade: Total Hitouts - 357 this year

That's an average of 16.2 a game. He also got 28 goals.

...and Lade isn't a full time ruckman.

Hitout Rankings:

http://www.footywire.com/fw/web/ft_player_rankings?year=2004&rt=LT&st=HO

Fraser was ranked 18th this year - that means he is behind the second best ruckmen of atleast two teams. Btw, Lade was 9th.

...and Josh was ranked 20th in hitouts ppg.

Don't get me wrong, I like Fraser, but he wasn't better than in RUCK, or down forward this year. Josh does have something going for him though, he is young, and has time on his side. Whereas, Lade is older, and doesn't have time on his side. Josh has alot more upside (I hope) than Lade ever has. But, those stats speak for themself.

[Cannibal]

Doesn't necessarily mean anything. Clark Keating, who has played just nine games, is ranked 28th. Assuming fitness, would you prefer to go into a GF with Brogan & Lade or Charman & Keating?

[Joel]

Waht has that got to do with anything? The stats PROVE that Lade was a better ruckman THIS year.

Of course you would prefer Charman and Keating, but that's not what this thread is about, so I'm not sure why you brought those up mate. If Keating wasn't injured, he would have got more.

Granted, Lade played four more games, but to even get close to the tally that Lade got, Josh would have had to of broken his record of 29 hitouts, 4 times over. Now, remember we are only using Lade as an example.

[3rd degree]

look you're right joel - I just hate lade and never want to say he's better than fraser especially with those dumb ears he's got!

[Joel]

So do I, that's why I want Fraser to come out and have a really good year next year....and every year after that.

[surfer1]

to Joel,

If you are going to look at hit outs as a guide to evaluating Fraser then don't you need to work out in the games he played what percentage of time he was in the ruck? My recollection is that before Richards got hurt Richards was the predominant ruckman.

Also can everyone leave Fraser alone, I don't care where he ultimately in his career decides to play, if you look at the around the ground skill levels of a lot of other Collingwood players then Fraser is already at 22 streets ahead. I think Cannibal has got it absolutely right

[samuel]

[quote="Joel"]This kid has to start stamping himself on the comp. I like Josh, but I think he can do so much more.

He has been handy the last couple of years, but his influence on games has often been minimal.

Next year, he needs to make a statement.[/quote]

Everyone agrees, It's time Josh to stamp yourself as a Top flight football!

[Blanch]

Not everyone agrees. MM made a statement regarding Taz...something like "there is no substitute for class." It was in reference to how we looked a better team with him in it. Josh oozes class. It's because of this that the expectation is high. I'm sorry but Josh is twice the player Richards is (and I love Guy).

Perception is reality and the same pressure was placed on Taz. Name the players we have who have true class. Not many eh? The ones you can list (bar Josh) are matchwinners. We expect the players with class to be matchwinners. If he was a no.46 in the draft and worked his ass off like he does, how proud would we be of the find we have? He's a better player than Drew Banfield or John Hutton have ever been. Who placed big things on Josh? Collingwood did.

btw, being a ruckman isn't all about tapouts. I recall a game against the geelong where king towelled up josh in the hitouts but josh was given best afield by the radio commentators. The game has changed. The idea of ruckman tap and rovers rove is ancient.

If you are looking for consistency, look to finals series. We want players who will perform in finals. Check out his performances in finals and you'll see consistency. Class players lift for finals.

[Johnson#26]

Lets look at the finals. Since the final against Port in 2002, Fraser has played well in every one that we have played. 5/6 is a pretty good strike rate. And they say the best players standout in finals...

[d9 tank]

Blanch, he may have twice the talent Richards does, but Richards can ruck. Where does this leave Fraser? 3rd tall forward? Well I hope so. He hasn't shown anything as a forward yet so we are going to have to pray he finds something extra this season.

No good having a tall thats desperate and good below the knees if thats all they can do. Time for him to play as a tall.

[Joel]

Good points surfer, and yes, that should be taken into account. Having said that, I would argue that Josh was in the ruck just as much as Richards. They were alternating, and it was only in a couple of games where Richards played the majority in the ruck.

d9, thats a point I've been trying to make. If Josh can't cut it as a ruck in the next couple of years, he is going to have to cut it as a forward.

[Johnson#26]

Every time Fraser is up forward, we look much more dangerous. He is a forward, and a makeshift ruckman like Rocca and Mark Richardson in the mid 90's. He can do a good job, but will become our next full forward. Richards is good enough to do 90% of the ruck work now.