Sheik Disgrace
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TurkishPie
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Location: Abbotsford
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| Quote: | | "Crime is always the fault of the criminal, but sometimes we have to take also preventative measures, like you would secure your home," |
I don't think he placing the fault on the victim, he is merely claiming that precaution needs to be taken. If your house gets burgled, it is not your fault, but if you had taken tighter security measures the chances of burglery would be reduced somewhat(not entirely, but to a large extent).
I think this particular publication has declared some kind of jihad against Australian Muslims.
| Proud Pies wrote: | | I wonder how it's a woman's fault when they are raped in their own home? or Elderly women who are raped. or in fact, how dare we show arms and legs and hair...yes of course it's our fault. |
There was a rape case, I think it was last year, where the victim was inside her own home in St Kilda when the rapist was walking past and saw her through the window. He got inside and raped her and in court one of his argumets was that she was lying down in provocative manner. The accused pleaded guilty to aggravated burglary, two counts of rape and one count of indecent assault. The "merciful" judge handed him a 2 year 9 month sentence which was ridiculous enough, but the sentence was also suspended. The only time he served was 38 days in custody.
There is some reference to it below
http://www.lawyersweekly.com.au/articles/af/0c0259af.asp
I can assure you he wouldn't have got a suspended sentece in a Sharia Court. |
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WhyPhilWhy?
WhyPhilWhy?
Joined: 09 Oct 2001
Location: Location: Location:
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| This would be the same Sharia Court that would also try the victim and potentially issue her a life sentence, would it TP? |
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TurkishPie
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Location: Abbotsford
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No, not the victim of rape.
What you are referring to is the punishment for prostitutes. Prostitution was very common in pre-Islamic Arabia, and to stamp it out the punishment is incarceration (and as the Quranic verse below suggests, not necessarily permanent). There are certain conditions which need to be met however. Four witnesses need to see the act actually take place. It is not sufficient enough for the witnesses to see two people walking out of a house together, they actually need to have seen or have actual proof of a sexual act taking place. Only then will they be subjected to punishment.
“If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify (to the truth of the allegation), confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful”[4:15-16]
I realise that there are courts around the world who under the guise of the Sharia dish out all sorts of punishment to suit their own agenda(political or otherwise). However, if those decisions are not consistent with Quranic law and therefore unIslamic, they cannot be considered as Sharia. |
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Proud Pies 
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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| TurkishPie wrote: | No, not the victim of rape.
What you are referring to is the punishment for prostitutes. Prostitution was very common in pre-Islamic Arabia, and to stamp it out the punishment is incarceration (and as the Quranic verse below suggests, not necessarily permanent). There are certain conditions which need to be met however. Four witnesses need to see the act actually take place. It is not sufficient enough for the witnesses to see two people walking out of a house together, they actually need to have seen or have actual proof of a sexual act taking place. Only then will they be subjected to punishment.
“If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify (to the truth of the allegation), confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful”[4:15-16]
I realise that there are courts around the world who under the guise of the Sharia dish out all sorts of punishment to suit their own agenda(political or otherwise). However, if those decisions are not consistent with Quranic law and therefore unIslamic, they cannot be considered as Sharia. |
this, taken from an earlier post of mine within this topic:
| Quote: | | and of course, let's not even go near the Sharia laws in Africa (Nigeria?) where a woman was raped, but she was the one they were going to flog, not the rapist, because it's always the woman's fault! |
TP,, you put forward some good arguments, but you are very selective in what you do say. As I said previously, just do a google search and you will find many more examples. This is real life, not what should or shouldn't be from quoting Sharia or other Islamic doctrin.
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
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TurkishPie
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Location: Abbotsford
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| Proud Pies wrote: | | TP,, you put forward some good arguments, but you are very selective in what you do say. As I said previously, just do a google search and you will find many more examples. This is real life, not what should or shouldn't be from quoting Sharia or other Islamic doctrin. |
ProudPies I am not defending the actions of misguided people. I am providing you evidence which confirms that Islam does not sanction, and in many cases is strictly opposed to the very behaviour you are speaking out against. I am defending Islam the religion, not the actions of some Muslims. Guess what, Muslims can be wrong too, just like non-Muslims. No body is perfect, that is what makes us human, however, one should be careful not to attribute these mistakes to the religion. Those examples you give from Africa are not unique to Muslim African countries, they are very common in the Third World. It even occurs frequently in the West, do a google search and see.
Consider that cat/exposed meat analogy by Hilaly, as stupid as it is, it is not all that far from the truth. Most Western men(and Eastern men for that matter) consider women as little more than exposed meat. To claim that the victim is responsible for the rape is preposterous. And if you carefully read the statements made by the Muslim Clerics, they are not really claming that. I have already shown you a recent Victorian court decision which allowed the rapist to walk free and left the victim traumatized for the rest of her life. I hope you showed at least the same level of disgust and hatred towards the judge who handed out that decision. Unless of course you are selective in who you hate.
| Proud Pies wrote: | this, taken from an earlier post of mine within this topic:
| Quote: | | and of course, let's not even go near the Sharia laws in Africa (Nigeria?) where a woman was raped, but she was the one they were going to flog, not the rapist, because it's always the woman's fault! |
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I will say it again..
| TurkishPie wrote: | | I realise that there are courts around the world who under the guise of the Sharia dish out all sorts of punishment to suit their own agenda(political or otherwise). However, if those decisions are not consistent with Quranic law and therefore unIslamic, they cannot be considered as Sharia. |
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bucksisgod 
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: Rock hard
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[quote="TurkishPie"]Consider that cat/exposed meat analogy by Hilaly, as stupid as it is, it is not all that far from the truth. Most Western men(and Eastern men for that matter) consider women as little more than exposed meat. [quote]
You may be of that opinion but don't rope the rest of us in with your primitive thought processes. I have a mother, female friends, wife, sister and daughter that I consider to be beautiful and precious. How about you try and defend your religion without sweeping generalisations that are both unrelated and inaccurate. That is the Sheik's comment alone, aimed at a receptive audience of "Eastern men". As much as you may protest it, you saying that the Shiek's comment is "not all that far from the truth" exposes your contempt for women and an underlying attitude of disrespect. I don't doubt that is your opinion, but I don't think most western men would agree with you. The Sheik is an embarrassment to the decent peaceful worshippers of Islam. But I guess that makes me anti muslim  |
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TurkishPie
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Location: Abbotsford
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[quote="TurkishPie"]Consider that cat/exposed meat analogy by Hilaly, as stupid as it is, it is not all that far from the truth. Most Western men(and Eastern men for that matter) consider women as little more than exposed meat. | Quote: |
You may be of that opinion but don't rope the rest of us in with your primitive thought processes. I have a mother, female friends, wife, sister and daughter that I consider to be beautiful and precious. How about you try and defend your religion without sweeping generalisations that are both unrelated and inaccurate. That is the Sheik's comment alone, aimed at a receptive audience of "Eastern men". As much as you may protest it, you saying that the Shiek's comment is "not all that far from the truth" exposes your contempt for women and an underlying attitude of disrespect. I don't doubt that is your opinion, but I don't think most western men would agree with you. |
Step outside and take a look at a billboard. Surely you cannot deny that women have become commodified objects of desire and lust.
I said most Western men, you are obviously the exception. You obviously don't look twice when you see a woman exposed, you have never watched porn, you have never contimplated cheating on your wife, not even in the slightest amount, you have never judged a woman on her appearence alone. I commend you for that. And I don't hold contempt or disrespect for anyone, not even you.
I wish all the best for you and your family. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Turkish Pie wrote: | | Step outside and take a look at a billboard. Surely you cannot deny that women have become commodified objects of desire and lust. |
I certainly agree with that part, TP.
I'm not against erotica as such... it's just what most people call porn is so fake, degrading and empty that I'm amazed most males seem to find it titillating.
I think there needs to be some sort of revolution in which women are again seen for their beauty, and as people, and not just as something to have sex with (as they are portrayed in rap music, advertising and pornography).
Perhaps I'm weird. I don't know. But this is something that I have strong feelings about.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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bucksisgod
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: Rock hard
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[quote="TurkishPie"] | TurkishPie wrote: | Consider that cat/exposed meat analogy by Hilaly, as stupid as it is, it is not all that far from the truth. Most Western men(and Eastern men for that matter) consider women as little more than exposed meat. | Quote: |
You may be of that opinion but don't rope the rest of us in with your primitive thought processes. I have a mother, female friends, wife, sister and daughter that I consider to be beautiful and precious. How about you try and defend your religion without sweeping generalisations that are both unrelated and inaccurate. That is the Sheik's comment alone, aimed at a receptive audience of "Eastern men". As much as you may protest it, you saying that the Shiek's comment is "not all that far from the truth" exposes your contempt for women and an underlying attitude of disrespect. I don't doubt that is your opinion, but I don't think most western men would agree with you. |
Step outside and take a look at a billboard. Surely you cannot deny that women have become commodified objects of desire and lust.
I said most Western men, you are obviously the exception. You obviously don't look twice when you see a woman exposed, you have never watched porn, you have never contimplated cheating on your wife, not even in the slightest amount, you have never judged a woman on her appearence alone. I commend you for that. And I don't hold contempt or disrespect for anyone, not even you.
I wish all the best for you and your family. |
Not even me? Well, how very noble, tolerant and respectful of you. If only the sheik shared your same values and extolled the same virtues of respect for all that you do, then he wouldn't be the embarrassment to the Islamic faith that he has become. Not condemning the faith, just the Mufti and his comments. Which were wrong regardless of how many people you think/speculate/assume have the same attitude. I'm of the opinion that a man can appreciate a woman's beauty and respect her for her intellect, they're not mutually exclusive. I am comfortable for a woman to wear what she deems comfortable to wear, be it a hijab or skirt or whatever, without thinking it my right to make a moral judgement. To infer that it's a woman's fault if a deviot can't control his urges is either blatant stupidity or a scumbag way of justifying the crime and deflecting responsibility. Simply an indefensable comment by the Shiek in any context or spin.
I wish the same for you and yours.
Last edited by bucksisgod on Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Someone said I should deny that women became commodified objects of desire and lust. |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| Sorry guys, but religion full stop is the problem. As soon as people start believing in the supernatural as explanations for the world, they quickly become hippocrits. The truth is that there is no 'higher being'. We as human beings have to learn to respect and care for each other without recourse to heaven, hell, Jesus, Allah, Buddah, Jehovah or the fairy god mother. |
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bucksisgod
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: Rock hard
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | Sorry guys, but religion full stop is the problem. As soon as people start believing in the supernatural as explanations for the world, they quickly become hippocrits. The truth is that there is no 'higher being'. We as human beings have to learn to respect and care for each other without recourse to heaven, hell, Jesus, Allah, Buddah, Jehovah or the fairy god mother. |
Three things about your post.
1. I agree with most of it, not being remotely religious.
2. Bold section, see my username. That's Blasphemy 
3. Thankyou for omitting Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy from your list. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I do not understand. How old are you? Does "it" still refer to Bold section see his or her username? |
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bazdaddy 
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | Sorry guys, but religion full stop is the problem. As soon as people start believing in the supernatural as explanations for the world, they quickly become hippocrits. The truth is that there is no 'higher being'. We as human beings have to learn to respect and care for each other without recourse to heaven, hell, Jesus, Allah, Buddah, Jehovah or the fairy god mother. |
Most sensible anhd logical thing I have read all year well done.
_________________
The black & white jumper, worn by heroes worshipped by millions. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I don't think that we can really say that there is definitely no God. How the hell would we know?
However, I tend to think that all religions are basically man-made. Which, of course, does not mean it is so, it is just what I think.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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