Sheik Disgrace
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TurkishPie
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Location: Abbotsford
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| Proud Pies wrote: | TP, your arguments are the same that we hear all the time, that Islam is a peaceful religion. And I'm not saying it isn't, but there are more and more people within the Islamic religion who are just like Hilaly and he is the Spiritual Leader of Islam in Australia. (Let's not even go near Indonesia's Abu Bakar Bashir and what he preaches in the name of Islam).
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And you know....yes I have asked a friend about why she wears a hajib....because it's part of her religion and she's worn it since she was a child and now, wouldn't know what to do outside without it on. Talk about something cultural!
Does your friend know that you are referring to her in such a degrading manner? Are you saying that she is not articulate enough to think for herself? Ask your friend about the validity of my posts. |
I was not degrading my friend in any way. That was her response to me almost verbatim. She can think for herself, but as I said, she had worn that since she was a child, it was part of her.
When she was made to wear it as a child, she wasn't given the choice, it was part of her religion and her families beliefs. Just as a catholic child makes their confirmation when they are about 11/12, that's not their choice, it's the family/religious choice, however, as an adult, it has no bearing on who they are.
I'm not denying the validity of your posts, I am however, giving you examples of what is actually occuring in the real world in the name of Islam.
Just google it and you will find many more examples. |
I agree with the majority of your post. Just want to make a couple of points. Just because people commit an act in the name of Islam, that does not mean Islam sanctions it. We have two sources of legislation, the Holy Quran and the authentic Hadith’s(these are the actions, sayings and behaviors of the Prophet Muhammed(PBUH)). Anything outside of this is considered an innovation and cannot be accepted as an Islamic tenet. For example, the analogy that Hilaly gave about the cat and exposed meat is clearly outside the fold of Islam and should not have been said. Also, I can categorically assure you that Hilaly is not the spiritual leader of all Australian Muslims. The Australian Federation of Islamic Council who appoints him is disproportionately represented, and I for one would not recognize their appointment of a Mufti. As I stated earlier, Turkish Australians are the second largest Islamic community in Australia and I can tell you the majority of them would not know Hilaly from Cazaly.
PP, I would encourage you to visit the local mosque in your area the next time it holds an open day, and have a chat to the practicing Muslim ladies there. You might re-evaluate some of your opinions regarding Muslim women.
Didaicos, I do agree with you, Walled Aly is a good role model for Muslims and he is a far more accurate depiction of Australian Muslims than a Hilaly. Having said that, ideologically speaking, there wouldn’t be too many differences between a Hilaly and Waleed Aly. The key difference would be the fact that Aly is Western educated and thus is more articulate in the sense that he can get the message across without creating misunderstandings and misinterpretations. This is why I think Sheik Hilaly should resign, he cannot always convey his message across properly.
Frankiboy, Molto grazie Senior Francesco. Tu sei Italiano si? |
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bucksisgod 
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: Rock hard
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| Think a few people are missing the point, It's not a Muslim vs Christian thread. The specific subject is Sheik Hilaly's publicised comments, preached to his followers. If a Christian priest was to extol the same virtues that the Sheik has, I have no doubt it would cause a similarly justified uproar, but they haven't publically endorsed the above quotes to the masses in Australia as the Shiek has. I am not a religious person BTW. This is not a religion vs religion thread, the subject is clear. Should Walled Aly( Agree, very articulate in comparison to Hilaly) usurp Hilaly in light of his comments? |
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Proud Pies 
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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Ahhhh the bible is overated.
I was baptised a catholic, made my confirmation at a young age, but i've never read the bible, I don't go to Church, I certainly don't follow the Catholic Religion in any strict way (I never married and yet still happened to have a daughter- go figure). I went to an all girl Catholic School, where as part of our biblical studies, we studied all religions, including Islam and Judaism. We visited a Mosque and also a Jewish Temple and were taught to respect other religions as well as our own.
I consider myself a sort of catholic/buddhist type person, who doesn't believe religion should rule one's life, but does admit it does shape who they are.
I have gone out with people from all sorts of religions and have never judged them by their religion. Just as i don't judge my moslem sister in law, nor my Lutheran sister in law.....in fact, the ones who are the most hypocritical and 'unchristian' were the strict catholic sister-in-laws who are no longer part of the family.
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TurkishPie
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Location: Abbotsford
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| Quote: | | Should Walled Aly( Agree, very articulate in comparison to Hilaly) usurp Hilaly in light of his comments? |
Whilst Aly is a leader in the Muslim community, he is a lawyer by profession, not an imam. He may be very knowledgeable in matters concerning the Islamic faith, in particular the social aspects of it, but he cannot be a Mufti or a spiritual leader. He can be a very good spokesman however. |
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bazdaddy 
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
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Precisely why I am an Aetheist, just sooo much conflict over religion.
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Piethagoras' Theorem 
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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Agree 100 % buckisgod, not trying to create a religious war here, just think that many are quick to judge a group of people over one mans comments. I don't condemn Christian followers over comments made in the Bible just as I don't with Islam over the Shiek's comments.
No problemo TurkishPie. I was born here but both parents are Italian now Australian citizens. I was raised Catholic went to Catholic school and went to a Christian Brothers run high school. I can tell you of some quite unacceptable behaviour through personal experience by the Brothers (not rape, but some fairly indecent stuff, stuff I thought was harmless at the time but grew increasingly mindfull of and sceptical as I grew older) at the same time though I won't paint all Christians with the same brush as I believe that the individuals themselves had issues.
Think about it. They commit to celibacy, something which is totally against natural human behavior and spend most of the day surrounded by young boys, somethings gotta give. It's not normal
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Formally frankiboy and FrankieGoesToCollingwood. |
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Proud Pies
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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I wish I could remember exactly what the Pope was recently castigated about. It had to do with Moslem's as well. So, yes, Religious Leaders do need to be careful of what they say.
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| frankiboy wrote: | | Think about it. They commit to celibacy, something which is totally against natural human behavior and spend most of the day surrounded by young boys, somethings gotta give. It's not normal |
This is something I don't understand.... NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that priests should be celibate. It says 'go forth and multiply'... as you say Frankiboy, it IS a completely unnatural state and I would suggest largely to blame for many of the problems they have had in recent years.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Donny 
Formerly known as MAGFAN8.
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Location: Toonumbar NSW Australia
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"NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that priests should be celibate." ?
That's a pretty big statement, mate. Presumably, you've read every word of the Bible. Or have you ?
I just googled 'Bible celibacy' and one of the first things to come up was this:
"Fundamentalists will tell you that celibacy has no basis in the Bible whatsoever, saying that Christians are called to "Be fruitful and multiply" This mandate speaks to humanity in general, however, and overlooks numerous passages in the Bible that support the celibate life."
http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/hudson/celibacy.html
Interesting, David ? 
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Donny.
It's a game. Enjoy it.  |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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No Donny, I haven't read every word of the Bible.
However, I can say I've read enough of it to make such a statement. There is no direct command in the Bible for priests to remain celibate. There are one or two verses that suggest that one might be able to serve God better if they weren't married... but it sounds more like advice than a command. And one could find plenty more verses supporting marital life, even if you had to go back to the old testament.
Anyway, I know that the Bible doesn't say that priests should be celibate, beccause the whole structure of the Catholic Church doesn't come from the Bible anyway. I don't think many people will be surprised that there are no references to popes anywhere, for example. Or saints, or the veneration of Mary.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Proud Pies
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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| David wrote: | | frankiboy wrote: | | Think about it. They commit to celibacy, something which is totally against natural human behavior and spend most of the day surrounded by young boys, somethings gotta give. It's not normal |
This is something I don't understand.... NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that priests should be celibate. It says 'go forth and multiply'... as you say Frankiboy, it IS a completely unnatural state and I would suggest largely to blame for many of the problems they have had in recent years. |
you know, i don't think it's the Celebacy thing that creates the monsters that abuse children within the Church......have a look at the Anglican Church. They have the same child sexual abuse issues, yet their priests can marry. These monsters JOIN the Churches as a place to harbour their pedophilia and be able to get close to families and forge strong bonds and trust within the community.
What was the previous Governor General's name who resigned in shame because he didn't handle child sex abuse cases within the Anglican Church very well.
wow, hasn't this debate turned around.
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
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Piethagoras' Theorem
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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| Proud Pies wrote: |
you know, i don't think it's the Celebacy thing that creates the monsters that abuse children within the Church......have a look at the Anglican Church. They have the same child sexual abuse issues, yet their priests can marry. These monsters JOIN the Churches as a place to harbour their pedophilia and be able to get close to families and forge strong bonds and trust within the community.
What was the previous Governor General's name who resigned in shame because he didn't handle child sex abuse cases within the Anglican Church very well.
wow, hasn't this debate turned around.
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That's an interesting point PP presuming that the offenders were actually married. I still believe though that being celibate would greatly contribute to one's mindset over a large period of time and compel an otherwise normal individual into abnormal behaviour. I'm no expert on the matter, it just seems logical.
Yeh sorry, going a little off track with the thread but it does have some relevance I believe 
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Formally frankiboy and FrankieGoesToCollingwood. |
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Didaicos
The Macedonian Marvel = The Croat Confoundment!!!
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
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Hilali Colapses
I think the one thing that many of Islam's "knockers" have to applaud is hugel call for Hilali to resign from many of the Islamic leaders in the community.
Hiliali's view is wrong....that said there are plenty of Christian Supreme Court Justices who have expressed similar views not that long ago.
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WELLLINGHAM ROVES IT....AND KICKS THE GOAL!!!!
SWAN'S GOING TO KICK A GOAL. THEY'RE HOME YOU'D THINK I KNOW IT'S A LONG WAY TO GO BUT THEY'RE KILLING THEM NOW!!
Last edited by Didaicos on Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Proud Pies
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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| Didaicos wrote: | Hilali Colapses
I think the one thing that many of Islam's "knockers" have to applaud is virtually the universal call for Hilali to resign from many Islamic leaders in the community. |
Agreed! Convenient that he collapsed....
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
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Proud Pies
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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Ohhhhhhhh this one was feeling out of it, so decides to speak out......
I wish they would either come into the 21st Century or shut up!
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20679157-2,00.html
| Quote: | Women 'provoke men' to rape
By Amanda O'Brien
November 01, 2006 01:00am
Article from: The Australian
THE most senior Muslim cleric in Western Australia has called on women not to leave their homes unaccompanied and insists sexual assaults happen only because "the man is provoked".
The comments, which follow those of Taj al-Din al-Hilaly comparing women to uncovered meat, were condemned by Premier Alan Carpenter as "totally unacceptable".
Imam Abdul Jalil Ahmad yesterday said women would be safer if they dressed appropriately and did not go out alone.
The imam rejected the idea that women were to blame for rapes, as suggested by Sheik Hilaly last week, but urged women to protect themselves as he said assaults happened when men were provoked.
"Crime is always the fault of the criminal, but sometimes we have to take also preventative measures, like you would secure your home," he said.
"Especially when they are alone, there's a problem. That's why the ideal is to have company with them all the time.
"They should try to take precautions, to wear (clothes) decently, not necessarily to cover from top to toe.
"In democratic countries they are free to dress as they like but you see the assault only happens because the man is provoked sexually or something like that."
Mr Carpenter said the comments were "totally out of step with modern Australia". He said: "Women have got every right to expect to be able to live free in this community, just like men, and to suggest they should not be going out unaccompanied is just totally unacceptable, wrong."
The controversy coincided with threatening phone calls made yesterday to two Perth Islamic schools. Police are investigating the calls to the Kewdale and Thornlie campuses of the Australian Islamic College, which have more than 1600 students from pre-primary to high school.
Kewdale campus deputy principal Yahya Ibraham said the threats were vague but violent and police had been called.
He believed they were prompted by the reporting of Sheik Halaly's comments.
"Some people get muddled up with the fact that these are young children who have nothing to do with the comments made over there," Mr Ibraham said.
Mr Carpenter said some of the comments being made by leaders could "only provoke unfortunate reactions".
"But for people who are feeling as though they are angry and they want to react - don't," he said. "Don't take it out on innocent people. It is completely and utterly the wrong thing to do. |
I wonder how it's a woman's fault when they are raped in their own home? or Elderly women who are raped. or in fact, how dare we show arms and legs and hair...yes of course it's our fault.
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
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