Sheik Disgrace
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bazdaddy 
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
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If the muslim community wanted to do anything about it they'd sack him, but they didn't. He meant what he said, he wasn't taken out of context at all. If they wanted to support Australian values as well as their own, they would of sacked him. By not sacking they may as well be supporting what he says, and by they I do not mean all muslims I mean the council or what ever it is that makes those decisions or the non decisions in this case to keep him.
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| Unfortunately the backward and dangerous views of this geeza would be shared by a lot of fundamentalist Christians as well, so don't make the mistake of thinking it's an islamic problem. Religions around the world, have long been at the forefront of suppressing women. |
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Piethagoras' Theorem 
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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Ban all religion and kick out the believers!!!  It's unaustralian.. Geezus
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TurkishPie
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Location: Abbotsford
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| David wrote: | I guess the problem is, the shiek is supposed to represent the Muslim community of Sydney, or whatever. So his views are a lot more worrying.
Obviously there are extremes in different religions (although I've yet to hear the leader of a Christian denomination state something similar), but if someone high up in one of the major churches said the same thing, I am sure there would be the same outrage. |
Like you I have not heard the leader of a Christian denomination state such words, however there have been and I’m assuming still are clergymen who engage in acts of rape and molestation of young boys. And there are very, very senior church officials who have knowledge of these vile acts but chose to turn a blind eye. In saying this, in no way am I claiming that Christianity permits child molestation and rape, it doesn’t.
With reference to the first part of your post, Turkish Australians form the second largest Muslim community in Australia(second to the Lebanese), and you would be lucky to find one Turk who would consider Sheik Hilaly as his Mufti or Spiritual leader.
I want to make some statements regarding the headscarf..
The order for women to cover their hair is not to oppress women, it is to honor them. Islam does not oppress women, it honors them. 1500 years ago, Islam gave women the right to own property, the right to choose their husband, the right to divorce, the right to inheritance, the right to vote. In the West, women have only just attained these rights in the last 150 years or so. The establishment of these rights to women 1500 years ago is even more remarkable when one considers the fact that under the previous administration, namely the pagan Arabs of Mecca, women were bought and sold in tents like commodities, newborn female babies were considered a dishonor and were buried alive.
This idea that Muslim women who wear the headscarf are oppressed is a myth and it is an insult to those women. Islam honors women, we don’t want to admire the woman for her physical appearance, we don’t want to see her body, that’s for her spouse. We want to recognize her for her intellect, her thoughts and opinions, her intelligence. The West on the other hand, they don’t want to recognize the woman for her intellect, they just want to see her body. I am guilty of this too.
I made reference to the terrible Pagan Arab tradition of buying and selling women in tents. It is unfortunate that in today’s world women are still bought and sold, not in tents, but in brothels and street corners. |
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bazdaddy
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
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| TurkishPie wrote: | | David wrote: | I guess the problem is, the shiek is supposed to represent the Muslim community of Sydney, or whatever. So his views are a lot more worrying.
Obviously there are extremes in different religions (although I've yet to hear the leader of a Christian denomination state something similar), but if someone high up in one of the major churches said the same thing, I am sure there would be the same outrage. |
Like you I have not heard the leader of a Christian denomination state such words, however there have been and I’m assuming still are clergymen who engage in acts of rape and molestation of young boys. And there are very, very senior church officials who have knowledge of these vile acts but chose to turn a blind eye. In saying this, in no way am I claiming that Christianity permits child molestation and rape, it doesn’t.
With reference to the first part of your post, Turkish Australians form the second largest Muslim community in Australia(second to the Lebanese), and you would be lucky to find one Turk who would consider Sheik Hilaly as his Mufti or Spiritual leader.
I want to make some statements regarding the headscarf..
The order for women to cover their hair is not to oppress women, it is to honor them. Islam does not oppress women, it honors them. 1500 years ago, Islam gave women the right to own property, the right to choose their husband, the right to divorce, the right to inheritance, the right to vote. In the West, women have only just attained these rights in the last 150 years or so. The establishment of these rights to women 1500 years ago is even more remarkable when one considers the fact that under the previous administration, namely the pagan Arabs of Mecca, women were bought and sold in tents like commodities, newborn female babies were considered a dishonor and were buried alive.
This idea that Muslim women who wear the headscarf are oppressed is a myth and it is an insult to those women. Islam honors women, we don’t want to admire the woman for her physical appearance, we don’t want to see her body, that’s for her spouse. We want to recognize her for her intellect, her thoughts and opinions, her intelligence. The West on the other hand, they don’t want to recognize the woman for her intellect, they just want to see her body. I am guilty of this too.
I made reference to the terrible Pagan Arab tradition of buying and selling women in tents. It is unfortunate that in today’s world women are still bought and sold, not in tents, but in brothels and street corners. |
Despite your claim or fact that woman were given rights 1500 years ago, are they treated just as equally of women of the west??
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Do you have to go to school for that? |
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Proud Pies 
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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| TurkishPie wrote: | | David wrote: | I guess the problem is, the shiek is supposed to represent the Muslim community of Sydney, or whatever. So his views are a lot more worrying.
Obviously there are extremes in different religions (although I've yet to hear the leader of a Christian denomination state something similar), but if someone high up in one of the major churches said the same thing, I am sure there would be the same outrage. |
Like you I have not heard the leader of a Christian denomination state such words, however there have been and I’m assuming still are clergymen who engage in acts of rape and molestation of young boys. And there are very, very senior church officials who have knowledge of these vile acts but chose to turn a blind eye. In saying this, in no way am I claiming that Christianity permits child molestation and rape, it doesn’t.
With reference to the first part of your post, Turkish Australians form the second largest Muslim community in Australia(second to the Lebanese), and you would be lucky to find one Turk who would consider Sheik Hilaly as his Mufti or Spiritual leader.
I want to make some statements regarding the headscarf..
The order for women to cover their hair is not to oppress women, it is to honor them. Islam does not oppress women, it honors them. 1500 years ago, Islam gave women the right to own property, the right to choose their husband, the right to divorce, the right to inheritance, the right to vote. In the West, women have only just attained these rights in the last 150 years or so. The establishment of these rights to women 1500 years ago is even more remarkable when one considers the fact that under the previous administration, namely the pagan Arabs of Mecca, women were bought and sold in tents like commodities, newborn female babies were considered a dishonor and were buried alive.
This idea that Muslim women who wear the headscarf are oppressed is a myth and it is an insult to those women. Islam honors women, we don’t want to admire the woman for her physical appearance, we don’t want to see her body, that’s for her spouse. We want to recognize her for her intellect, her thoughts and opinions, her intelligence. The West on the other hand, they don’t want to recognize the woman for her intellect, they just want to see her body. I am guilty of this too.
I made reference to the terrible Pagan Arab tradition of buying and selling women in tents. It is unfortunate that in today’s world women are still bought and sold, not in tents, but in brothels and street corners. |
and I actually know quite a few Turkish and Lebanese muslim women who were forced to marry people they didn't want to.
Not that long ago an Islamic girl of either Turkish or Lebanese origin was killed by her family for disgracing them by not marrying who they had chosen. This was in in NSW, not overseas. And let's take the family to the beach, because it's 40 degrees....and there the women are, sitting on the sand in their hijab and many in the long flowing coats, so as not to show any part of their bodies, whilst the men, boys and only the small girls, are allowed to have respite from the oppressive heat and enjoy a swim in the ocean.
I don't understand why it's always the males that seem to be standing up and saying Islamic women have freedom and choice ......even under Sharia Law, they had nothing, not even education.
So, yes, of course the women aren't repressed or oppressed, you just keep telling yourselves that.
Anyway, back to the original problem with this Mufti. See, he also believes that women should be completely covered up and at their house, not out so see, even he oppresses Islamic women.
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond
Last edited by Proud Pies on Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:48 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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bazdaddy
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
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Exactly right 100% correct. What ever you say about women 1500 years ago clearly doesn't apply now.
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bucksisgod 
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: Rock hard
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Spot on Proud Pies, Liking your work.  |
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TurkishPie
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Location: Abbotsford
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Bazdaddy, not in every aspect no.
ProudPies, forcing someone to marry against his/her wishes is not acceptable. In the instances where it does occur, it is a tribal or cultural thing. It is not permissible in Islam. Would I be correct in assuming that those Turkish and Lebanese families you mentioned are not particularly religious?
Whilst males are not required to cover their hair, they must also protect their modesty. It is not just a one-way street.
I would be grateful if you could point out to me where in the Sharia it says women cannot receive an education. If I were you I would re-evaluate my association with the person or publication who has told you this lie.
But you know what, seeing as you don’t trust me, don’t take my word for the above. The next time you see a Muslim woman with a headscarf ask her if the statements I have made are valid.
Also, what Hilaly does in his own home is his own business. |
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Proud Pies
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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| TurkishPie wrote: | | ProudPies, forcing someone to marry against his/her wishes is not acceptable. In the instances where it does occur, it is a tribal or cultural thing. It is not permissible in Islam. Would I be correct in assuming that those Turkish and Lebanese families you mentioned are not particularly religious? |
No, you aren't correct in assuming that they weren't religious. In fact, one went over to Turkey on a holiday to stay with cousins....she wrote to another friend in tears that she couldn't now leave as her family had organised her wedding and she was marrying this person she'd never met.
| Quote: | | Whilst males are not required to cover their hair, they must also protect their modesty. It is not just a one-way street. |
How do they do that? I personally have seen them f-rolic-king (the swear filter seemed to think that was rude) in the water at the beach in their 'speedos' and we all know NOBODY WEARS THEM coz they hide NOTHING! lol
| Quote: | | I would be grateful if you could point out to me where in the Sharia it says women cannot receive an education. If I were you I would re-evaluate my association with the person or publication who has told you this lie. |
What? Try reading up on the Sharia laws that existed in Afghanistan before the Government was overturned. Women were not allowed out without a male FAMILY member. Women, who were doctors, lawyers, professors had their livlihoods taken away from them when the Taleban took over the ruling of that Country and used the Sharia laws to contain them. Women were forced to completely cover themselves from head to foot in burqas (those long robes with only a slit for the eyes...and at times, even that had mesh over it). I believe this Hilaly here has the same ideas that the Taleban had in Afghanistan.
| Quote: | But you know what, seeing as you don’t trust me, don’t take my word for the above. The next time you see a Muslim woman with a headscarf ask her if the statements I have made are valid.
Also, what Hilaly does in his own home is his own business. |
and of course, let's not even go near the Sharia laws in Africa (Nigeria?) where a woman was raped, but she was the one they were going to flog, not the rapist, because it's always the woman's fault!
I never said i didn't trust you. I don't know you, but you are the one preaching about how women are 'supposed' to be treated, I'm just pointing out examples of how they really ARE treated.
And you know....yes I have asked a friend about why she wears a hajib....because it's part of her religion and she's worn it since she was a child and now, wouldn't know what to do outside without it on. Talk about something cultural!
and yes, what child molestors and wife/husband bashers do in their own home is their business too is it not? (Do not take that statement as me calling him a child molestor or wife beater.....i'm just using the example)
oh, and did i tell you i have a muslim sister in law?
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond
Last edited by Proud Pies on Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:53 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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TurkishPie
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Location: Abbotsford
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| Proud Pies wrote: | | No, you aren't correct in assuming that they weren't religious. In fact, one went over to Turkey on a holiday to stay with cousins....she wrote to another friend in tears that she couldn't now leave as her family had organised her wedding and she was marrying this person she'd never met. |
So this friend of yours prays 5 times a day, fasts during the month of Ramadan, gives a percentage of her wealth to charity annually and has or is intending on making the pilgrimage to Mecca in the near future? Because if she doesn't fulfill the above criteria, she is not the best example for you to provide. Arranged marriages are very common in Turkish culture, they used to occur more frequently before the Turks embraced Islam.
| Quote: | | How do they do that? I personally have seen them f-rolic-king (the swear filter seemed to think that was rude) in the water at the beach in their 'speedos' and we all know NOBODY WEARS THEM coz they hide NOTHING! lol |
If somebody is wearing Speedos, they are not acting in accordance with Islamic teachings. How many men were f-rolic-king around in Speedos under the Taliban?
| Quote: | What? Try reading up on the Sharia laws that existed in Afghanistan before the Government was overturned. Women were not allowed out without a male FAMILY member. Women, who were doctors, lawyers, professors had their livlihoods taken away from them when the Taleban took over the ruling of that Country and used the Sharia laws to contain them. Women were forced to completely cover themselves from head to foot in burqas (those long robes with only a slit for the eyes...and at times, even that had mesh over it). I believe this Hilaly here has the same ideas that the Taleban had in Afghanistan.
and of course, let's not even go near the Sharia laws in Africa (Nigeria?) where a woman was raped, but she was the one they were going to flog, not the rapist, because it's always the woman's fault! |
As I have stated many times before, there is not one country in the world today which implements Sharia law correctly. The legal/ruling system adopted by the Taliban was largely based on the Shariah, but not entirely. You have got to understand that they were in a transitional phase. Under the previous regimes(the Communist Najibullah etc.) total chaos prevailed. Women were abducted and raped in the streets, this is why women were not allowed out without a male family member. Furthermore, whilst the system the Taliban adopted was far from perfect, believe it or not, women were allowed to study and work. I read somewhere that back in 1998 or something a Swedish study showed more females were enrolled in medicine courses than men. Women were employed in government departments as well as the private sector. As for the burqah, this has no Islamic significance whatsoever, it is entirely a tribal item. Many women in Afghanistan still wear it today. Having said that, a high number of converts to Islam (It is the fastest growing religion in the world, despite all this negative propaganda, and ironically a large number of these new Muslims are women) choose to wear the burqah also. I personally think it is not practical and not necessary.
With the African incident, as with the other examples you give, this is an act by Muslims which totally contradicts the Sharia. If indeed what you say is true, they got it wrong. The rapist should be executed subject to the approval of the victim and her immediate family.
| Quote: | | I never said i didn't trust you. I don't know you, but you are the one preaching about how women are 'supposed' to be treated, I'm just pointing out examples of how they really ARE treated. |
I appreciate your concern for Muslim women, I really do. And I think your intentions are genuine. I am not denying that some Muslim women are ill-treated, just like you cannot deny that western women are ill-treated. My argument is that Islam does not justify this treatment, in fact Islam strictly prohibits it. Islam teaches us to honor women. There are Prophetic sayings such as “The best of you (the believers) are those who are good to their wives” and “Paradise is under the foot of the mother”(this one doesn’t actually translate that well, but it sounds pretty good in Arabic).
| Quote: | | And you know....yes I have asked a friend about why she wears a hajib....because it's part of her religion and she's worn it since she was a child and now, wouldn't know what to do outside without it on. Talk about something cultural! |
Does your friend know that you are referring to her in such a degrading manner? Are you saying that she is not articulate enough to think for herself? Ask your friend about the validity of my posts.
| Quote: | | and yes, what child molestors and wife/husband bashers do in their own home is their business too is it not? (Do not take that statement as me calling him a child molestor or wife beater.....i'm just using the example) |
When somebody breaks the law, s/he becomes accountable for his/her actions regardless of where the act takes place. |
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Proud Pies
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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TP, your arguments are the same that we hear all the time, that Islam is a peaceful religion. And I'm not saying it isn't, but there are more and more people within the Islamic religion who are just like Hilaly and he is the Spiritual Leader of Islam in Australia. (Let's not even go near Indonesia's Abu Bakar Bashir and what he preaches in the name of Islam).
| Quote: |
And you know....yes I have asked a friend about why she wears a hajib....because it's part of her religion and she's worn it since she was a child and now, wouldn't know what to do outside without it on. Talk about something cultural!
Does your friend know that you are referring to her in such a degrading manner? Are you saying that she is not articulate enough to think for herself? Ask your friend about the validity of my posts. |
I was not degrading my friend in any way. That was her response to me almost verbatim. She can think for herself, but as I said, she had worn that since she was a child, it was part of her.
When she was made to wear it as a child, she wasn't given the choice, it was part of her religion and her families beliefs. Just as a catholic child makes their confirmation when they are about 11/12, that's not their choice, it's the family/religious choice, however, as an adult, it has no bearing on who they are.
I'm not denying the validity of your posts, I am however, giving you examples of what is actually occuring in the real world in the name of Islam.
Just google it and you will find many more examples.
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
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Didaicos 
The Macedonian Marvel = The Croat Confoundment!!!
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
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I think Australian Muslims should think seriously about some of these community leaders.
A community leader I do respect is Waleed Aly (Islamic Council Of Victoria). He puts the views of his religion without reverting to fundamentalism. I saw a great Compass special on the ABC with him, the way he lives proves that Islam can live within Australian society.
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SWAN'S GOING TO KICK A GOAL. THEY'RE HOME YOU'D THINK I KNOW IT'S A LONG WAY TO GO BUT THEY'RE KILLING THEM NOW!! |
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Piethagoras' Theorem
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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I hope that the people condemning Islam and its treatment of women are not Bible following Christians as that would be either hypocracy or just plain ignorance
Rape is one of the most heinous crimes imaginable. Yet few people know that the Bible often condones and even approves of rape. How anyone can get their moral guidance from a book that allows rape escapes me. Perhaps they have been lied to about the Bible and carefully detoured around all the nasty stuff in the Bible.
http://mybible.notlong.com
1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?
2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.
3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.
5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".
6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]
This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!
7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
8.) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)
They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)
9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
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