I'm totally confused...please help

[Legga]

After this years trade period, and subsequent training invites I am totally confused as to the direction this football club is taking. MM comes to us and in 2 years changes the list by some 32 players, says that we are embarking on a youth policy, and for the 73rd time (I may be exaggerating a touch) in the last 40 years, we have a coach and administration telling us they are embarking on a 5 year plan, and to be patient.

We have a reasonable 2001 season, we then delist some players that were not really going anywhere. For some reason we then make NO trades, and I really think that our boys set their sights on a couple of players, and when that didn't work out, we were found to have missed the boat on some of the better players around. Now, just to confound all the experts, we invite 2 old, questionable players to our club for pre-season.

I really think that last years success was built on the injection of some experienced players that could help out the younger players, but these guys still have the chance to play 5 years or more with us. We have by passed older players in the previous trades, due to our "Youth Policy", players who I think are better that Fletcher and Cummings, and now when there are some reasonable players in the upcoming draft, delisted by clubs for salary cap reasons, we seemingly take no interest in them.

I just can't work out what direction this club is taking. Are they saying that we have a list that will win finals in the next 2-3 years, so we don't need to trade, just recruit young players for the future. If this is so, then why are our 1st 2 picks only 11 & 27. Why not trade to get higher picks. Surely Hawthorn are seen to have a stronger list, yet they off load one of their best talents to get the No.1 pick.

I truly am baffled, and hope that we pick up some quality in the 2 upcoming drafts, because if we go backwards this coming season, and don't make the 8 then apart from feeling totally devastated, I think that some hard questions and decisions will have to be made.

I also am getting pretty dispondant at reading players saying that Collingwood is not the club that they see themselves at. Cummings is certainly not worth worrying about, but when a guy like this says he would rather stay in WA and take his chance with the Coasters, as opposed to coming to us, then this, along with Black, Misiti, Scott West and a few others who have chosen not to come over suggests that we may not be as attractive a club to play for as we as supporters may think.

[pie-no-sauce]

I think your coffee cup is half empty this morning.
Most discussions I've read show respect and agreement for the current (isn't it always) rebuilding.
The only recycler with a real sniff is Fletcher and he has a serious CV.
Mister Misiti for mine wasn't worth selling off the farm.
As for Cummings & Co. who knows what they were told but you can bet your life if MM and Judkins wanted him he'd have been bleating a different tune.
Besides, the trading and drawing aint over yet mate.
If you are still confuddled go back and read some of the posts below where concensus shows a rather new, favourable view, for the actions of our esteemed leaders.

[helen a]

mate!!!
We only started rebuilding the mess that discraceful tony shaw created(which incedently set us back 6 years)when he left us in misery!!! I despise him for what he did and the fact that no onw seemed to notice what he was doing till it was smack bang in their face!
Well im totally behind mick and eddie, their policies and i fairly confident and happy about our policies i AM aware of. They had to dig us out of a hole before "rebuilding" started..

Dont critize till u see how things pan out.But whatever u think its up to you.




helen

[Joel]

I'm sorry but I have to agree. We must not think short term but rather long term, drafting players that are 32 years of age is stupid...unless Fletcher turns out to be a Craig Bradley and plays till he is 60, I don't want a bar of him.

And on Cummings - we got rid of Sav cos he was too much of a focus in the forward line, don't you all think drafting a Cummings has the potential to do the same?

JDF

[Brown26]

Firstly helen - Don't knock Shaw. We all agree he was a great captain for our club, but he wasn't that bad a coach either. He gets knocked time and time again when really it was the short sightedness of the previous administrations that left him in such a mess. He wasn't the best coach going around but he certainly didn't do too bad, and he CERTAINLY did NOT put us back six years. Just ask yourself who he brought to the club - and number one I'll give you is Noel Judkins. Number two - how many years have Tarant, Lockyer etc. been playing?

They are not the creation of MM, they have been nurtured by him, but Tony Shaw did his bit for the club and got them here. I hate it when people abuse him cause he had one bad year with, let's face it, a pretty young and dare-I-say-it pathetic list. I reckon he would've done heaps better with another few years, and if he had've sat out a few more years.

Anyway, secondly, Legga:

Look at it this way. We have a good list that will win finals and will be a champion team. We don't need to sell heaven and earth to make it better cause it will get naturally better. Not drafting players who aren't in the long term plan just gives us a bit of depth for this year.

However, if we acn pick up Fletcher cheaply, then why not? He'll be of some use to us for one or two years, then we'll drop him when Didak, Scotland are absolute champions, not just young guys in the seniors. And if Fletcher doesn't work out, it's no skin off our nose to play him in the VFL.

Misiti, on the other hand, would've cost us HEAPS of money, HEAPS of draft picks, and Essendon were being real pains in the a*s as usual. So we didn't get him. Fine - I say now we have a good young list it's time to stick it up the other clubs who have stuck it up us in previous years.

Also - who says Hwathorn are good? They're list isn't that good, and not deep. They ahve players who played above themselves this year - ie. Braker. Chick is possibly the most overated player in the AFL - he better lift his game like Crawford did this year or he wont get a game if Hawthorn are serious about challenging for the flag. Their talls are young and seem to have the goods - but when Rehn retires soon they have two talls up back and two talls up forwards and one ruck - hardly anything special, especially considering Barkers age.


They will be a good team for a lot of years - we will be a great team for many many years. Wait for the natural maturity - we dont' need old players, but if they are presented to us cheaply, we might get them for a year or two to enjoy the ride.


Pies for Premiers 2002, 3, 4, 5, 6....

[helen a]

Well if i dont knock the worm the world will!!! Hell get his Karma for all the pain the loser caused us!! Untill then ill knock him all i want!!!
U must be dreaming, the guys was useless.
Look maybe our list was/is young but thats no excuse, the dickheads job was to mature them.He failed.
Yeah he wouldve done fine in a few years....now that hes constantly bagging our club in every way possible, gee i wish hed stayed................
ILl quit while im ahead.


helen

[Black_White]

Yeah, I'll join the KSP (Knock Shaw Party).

I can forgive him for the incompetent coaching, only because he was a Premiership Captain.
But the crap he comes up with when talking about CFC on the TV or radio cannot be forgiven. Pure sour grapes.

Vote 1..........KSP!

-Craig

FAITH

[MarkT]

Helen, you are entitled to your opinion but I think it is unenlightened, illinformed, disrepectful dribble. The Shaw years were disasterous in many ways, but to lay the blame entirely at the feet of a man who bled for his club on so many occassions annoys the crap out me.

Shaw was not a good a coach - although not as bad as some think in my opinion and he has not been complimentary since he left but I believe he has legitimate beefs with the club. I also think he has been made the scape goat for the worst recruiting in the history of the Collingwood Football clud leading up to and including his reign as coach.

That's my 2 bobs worth anyway.

[helen a]

well Im sorry u feel that way.
Who said he was entirely responsible???
Thats giving him to much credit...
nah....but yeh point taken

helen

[The Zapper]

The problem with Shaw as coach was that he was not a good manager. He had no idea what he wanted the team to be. In each of his first three years he decided on a different game plan. First it was all out attack, then he wanted to be more defensive and then tried to be tactical...remember the black book episode? In his last year he just tried youth because he had nothing else left.

As to the recruiting, remember one thing. The senior coach has the last word on recruits and before you all go blaming Judkins understand he had to work in with Shaw's requirememnts. I suppose you just need to see who we have got to the club in the last two years to see the difference. I know there have been mistakes but the hits far outweigh the misses.

The final point about Shaw was that he refused to take any blame as to the state he left Collingwood. I heard him on 3AW say that he left the club in a better state than when he took over. Give me strength...In 1995 we were just outside the eight. His last year was our second wooden spoon!!! And then he tried to pass the buck!!

You do not get a wooden spoon by improving Tony!!!

I have no problems with Shaw the player but as a coach he set us back a decade. He just took it on too soon after playing.

I dont give a damn about what he says on the media now. I just look at the mess he left and how as a result we have had to rebuild by turning over some 26 players in the last two years.

Thank you Shaw you tosser!

[BJ]

I agree with Zapper. To put this in perspective I am sure we all believe that Fremantle are hopeless and the current joke of the AFL. Since 1996, we have won just 9 more games than them. Nine games in six seasons folks - This includes the MM years to date. It is fortunate they only won two games this year, because with our eleven, we were in fact break-even with them at 2000 end.
Shaw screwed the team and only now are we starting to turn the corner from this monumental management stuff-up by the people that appointed him. I am sick and tired of excuses and "re-building". It's high time the club became successful once again. You can only spoon-feed people the same crap for so long before they tire of it. But facts are facts!

That's my opinion, I may be wrong - so shoot me.


BJ

[Rohan Coventry Tateson]

I was rather disappointed about our trading performance initially but when I thought about it in detail I realized a combination of factors made it hard for the recruiters to achieve a big coup.

I am also happy that they didn’t give in to Essendon and Fremantle by offering a high draft pick, as the depth of talent available in the draft is considerable. Let’s hope we can pick up a tall key position player like Brocks or Jamar with this first pick.

Picking up a player from another club is a tricky process and should always be determined by a process that is used in economics. The opportunity cost is what your give up or for go to get this player. If it is too high and the club is asking for a Lockyer or this first round draft pick than the player has to be of the same standard.

Our main targets were obviously Misiti and Heath Black. Circumstances conspired to Collingwood failing to acquire these players but I feel Essendon and Fremantle were asking too much for their services and thus the opportunity cost was too high.

The clubs focus appears to be on the back of youth that will eventually deliver sustained success. A analogy would be Manchester United in the mid nineties when they invested time in a group of kids that included the Neville brothers, Scholes, Butt and Beckham and has gone on to reap much success.

My only concern or query is that this youth focus should be continually complemented with traded and more experienced players from other clubs. The template was right last year when Molloy, Clement, Holland (do what Buckley has done and pound the pavement), Rintoul and Steinfort were complements of draftees in Lonie, Didak and Richards. By complementing youth with experience the club is sharing their risk and not “hatching all their eggs in one basket”.

The National and Pre-season draft is yet to come. From were I sit the side is a key backman, another midfielder and ruckman away from a top seven side. I doubt we can acquire a draftee that fills these breaches next year, as they will make an impact in a number of years.

It will have to come from within or via picking up delisted players in the latter stages of the National and Pre-season draft. I would concentrate on Houlihan, Moorcroft, Flecther, Turnbill and Fletcher.

This year is crucial in the development of the club and more importantly the side. A finishing position of 5 to 8 is achievable, as there is scope for natural improvement, physical and mental development and the addition of Burns and Adkins to the side.

Finals should be expected and anything less should not be tolerated. However the teams’ best is still 2 years away and I would be aiming at 2003 to 2005 as seasons that success can be achieved.


In Skob We Trust

[MarkT]

Zapper, I don't deny what you say at all. Shaw's record will show he was not a good coach and that is that. I do think the recruiting falls on the coach's head to an extent and during his time the recruiting was a mixed bag - more bad than good. But the real problems stemmed from the list he inherited and a board which was incompetent in the extreme which was in place when he took over.

If you predominantly blame Shaw for poor recruiting, then what do you say of Mathews post 1990? Paul Williams is the only decent draft choice I can recall off the top of my head that we picked up post 1990 until Shaws time when we got Tarrant, Lockyer and a few others. The type of bum we continually recruited meant that when we did get a guy with talent it was never in and danger of being realised because of the type of person they were - James, Hotton, Houlihan and plenty more. That was begun pre Shaw and at least he tried to rectify it - MM has completed the job.

Lets not forget also that under Mathews we won finals in one year out of 10 and the first of those 1990 finals was a draw where Sumich could have knocked us out with one strait kick. That is a terrible record which puts the comparrison in some perspective given Mathews is regarded as a very good coach and Shaw as very poor. By the time Shaw took over we were lucky to be 10th on the ladder.

As for changing tactics, well I agree but in justification, his plans didn't work because the players were just not good enough. He tried something, concluded it didn't work for our list and then didn't stand on obstanant principles but tried something else. In the end he ran out of options. The black book saga was not his fault - blame the recruitment and handling of Hotton. The idea of a play book was inovative and meritorios. Perhaps someone like MM would have pulled things together earlier but the state WCE are in now would suggest perhaps not.

I am not Tony Shaw's appologist, just someone who thinks he has copped more than he deserves after 300 games of unsurpassed devotion and his best endevours as a coach in impossible circumstances.

I hate his remarks since his departure but he has reason to be bitter. If I had one wish it would be that he swallow the pride that made him the player and captain he was to come back into the fold. Whilst he cops the abuse he does from Collingwood supporters that is unlikely.

[This message has been edited by MarkT (edited 09 November 2001).]

[Lockyer24]

Youre contradicting yourself, you claim you are sick of 5 year plans and letting kids develop (from scratch!) THEN say you dont want Fletcher, who would make an immediate impact in the midfield where we get killed week in week out (at the stop plays)
The key is to inject both experience and youth so the side can develop together and mould into a unit. We recruited enough experienced guys last year...and our kids get better by the year!

Shut up you sook. Have some faith/patience.

[MarkT]

Lockyer24, I don't think we get killed at stop plays because of our midfield. I think it is because we can't get a ruck tap out. Carlton are probably the best at stop plays in the comp. and players like Ratten get most of the credit. Good as he is, I think a large slice of tghe credit should go to their strong rucks (now singular). Fletcher will make any difference to us. If we win in the ruck Bucks will be the best clearance player in the AFL.



[This message has been edited by MarkT (edited 09 November 2001).]