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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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sherrife studying economics has really opened my eyes to how important economic management is, and at the moment the Liberals are far superior at it. Obviously it is not the only reason why you should elect a government, but I like the fact that the Liberals take an Economic rationalist line (which incidentally was pioneered by Hawke and Keating).
For me, I'm amazed that so many people my age are Howard Supporters. I always believed growing up that between the ages of about 17-20 that there would be more support for the Greens than the Liberals, but I have several friends who favour the Liberal party. That, I think, is not a good sign for Labour if many of the young, who you would think would be more idealistic, are having liberal tendencies. Or maybe idealism is dead? Who knows. We have become a very cynical society.
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sherrife 
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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Do you go to a private school? Wait till you get to university, barely anyone supports the Liberals there 
See the problem is people think that economic management = Liberals, when in reality Howard has done nothing for the economy and all the work was done by Keating and Hawke. The only major thing Howard has put into place is the GST, and even that wasn't implemented completely so that we still have so many taxes hanging around.
In any case, give it some time David and you will study other forms of economic systems, not communist, but just founded on principles that are completely different to the rationalist perspective. Efficiency does not = wealthy and happy society, and it is unfortunate that it has taken most of us so long to realise this (unfortunately Howard and Costello missed that particular philosophical revelation).
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| David from Canberra wrote: | sherrife studying economics has really opened my eyes to how important economic management is, and at the moment the Liberals are far superior at it. Obviously it is not the only reason why you should elect a government, but I like the fact that the Liberals take an Economic rationalist line (which incidentally was pioneered by Hawke and Keating).
For me, I'm amazed that so many people my age are Howard Supporters. I always believed growing up that between the ages of about 17-20 that there would be more support for the Greens than the Liberals, but I have several friends who favour the Liberal party. That, I think, is not a good sign for Labour if many of the young, who you would think would be more idealistic, are having liberal tendencies. Or maybe idealism is dead? Who knows. We have become a very cynical society. |
When I was at School/University, Howard was in charge of the economy and I can tell you it wasn't flash, record unemployment, high interest rates etc. Keating's policies turned the country around. Then as the global economy faltered so did ours, just as its starting to happen now. The Liberals like the US system, user pays and if you’re poor to bad. That is why their IR policy is all about making a working poor (cheap Labour) just like the US. That is not economic management that is divisive policy. It's Rich v Poor and that is what Liberal stands for. Another example is they wish to remove Medicare a policy that was design to help people without money. The US way is the ambulance pulls up and checks your wallet before they check you. Under Howard I benefit greatly, but good Government must not be about managing the economy but their policies must be about looking after all the people. It’s not all about money and once you get older and have a family and all the flow on expenses that go with that you will realize this as well. Then again may be lucky enough to be one of those people that just walk into a plush job on 200k a year and have no idea what it is like to bring up a family on 20k a year. The trouble is you are young and yet to see what has transpired over many years of both these parties. Sure you can read about it, in saying that I have seen it and felt it first hand. I have ridden the highs and lows of both parties. The only thing I would say Labour has over the Liberals, they have more compassion.
To add, I could put all the Labour politicians into the Liberal party and you could not tell the difference. They leave university these days and there are two doors, which one they take depends on which party they run for. It’s not about ideology anymore. It’s all about which one gives me the best chance of being in power. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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nah sherriffe it's a public school.
It's funny walking around uni campuses (me and two of my mates go to the ANU every thursday to study maths) and there are so many protest flyers and anti-Howard posters sticking up everywhere (it was the same when I visited Monash Uni in Melbourne). Is it like everyone goes to uni and suddenly becomes all wrapped up in politics?
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Proud Pies 
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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| David from Canberra wrote: | nah sherriffe it's a public school.
It's funny walking around uni campuses (me and two of my mates go to the ANU every thursday to study maths) and there are so many protest flyers and anti-Howard posters sticking up everywhere (it was the same when I visited Monash Uni in Melbourne). Is it like everyone goes to uni and suddenly becomes all wrapped up in politics? |
they suddenly actually realise that there is a real world out there
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| What do you study at school? |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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and yet PP many then change their minds as they get past the uni stage. As Winston Churchill said (paraphrasing) "If you are not a socialist by age 20 then you have no heart. If you are not conservative by age 40 then you have no brain." I don't think they would have to conduct any studies to prove that the majority of late teens/early twenties tend more towards the left side of politics but the majority starts to swing the other way later in life. Why this is the case would be an interesting psychological study I reckon.
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Proud Pies
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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once you get out into the real world and actually know where your money is going and what's happening with your life and jobs etc.......you too might change your mind
or at the very least.....have your eyes opened
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
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Robert Walls (not really)
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
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| Interest rates are going UP! |
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Proud Pies
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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See Dave, a lot of young kids don't actually think for themselves and take on their parents persona in politics just as they do with football 
When they get out into the real world, they actually see and experience everything for themselves and sometimes can even take on a differing point of view.
I know you like to debate things and you feel like you have an open mind, but i think you need to open it more.
Perhaps I failed in that I brought my daughter up to think for herself and only ever taught her to make her vote count. I didn't persuade her which way to vote at all, but to think about what she was voting for. At the last election, she voted Green.
She also doesn't barrack for Collingwood, in fact.........she's barracking for Geelong.........that's where i DID fail.
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond
Last edited by Proud Pies on Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| David from Canberra wrote: | | and yet PP many then change their minds as they get past the uni stage. As Winston Churchill said (paraphrasing) "If you are not a socialist by age 20 then you have no heart. If you are not conservative by age 40 then you have no brain." I don't think they would have to conduct any studies to prove that the majority of late teens/early twenties tend more towards the left side of politics but the majority starts to swing the other way later in life. Why this is the case would be an interesting psychological study I reckon. |
I think as you get older you get more concerned with being comfortable and wealthy personally, especially for your immediate family. In contrast, when we are young we enjoy radical change and have more altruistic hopes for the future. It would be interesting to see whether having a family would correlate to increased conservatism... I can see how it would at a psychological level.
Dave in answer to your question; you're right in that a lot of people at uni do give a shit about politics (almost every arts student at least), but also the people that are REALLY passionate about it are at their most active. Honestly David you're a smart guy i'm sure when you start learning about the many failures of capitalism you will see how shitty it is.
The only reason we even have this debate about whether capitalism is any good is because we are in the fortunate top x% of the world that are not living in relative or absolute poverty. Eg. most people in the world see a crisis in world health at the moment due to pharmaceutical companies patenting everything, whereas western countries see that whole saga as an philosophical/intellectual issue to be discussed rather than life or death, millions of people dying each year ongoing disaster.
Even when i say that, i say it from the perspective of not really being able to grasp the enormity of the situation, it's all abstract in my mind and in the minds of most of us westerners. In anycase, my point is that we can only contemplate thinking this system is okay because we're in the top x% that are benifitting from it... too bad the majority of the world is going backwards.
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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Proud Pies
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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| sherrife wrote: | | The only reason we even have this debate about whether capitalism is any good is because we are in the fortunate top x% of the world that are not living in relative or absolute poverty. |
Wait 5 minutes, it's on it's way!
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Proud Pies wrote: | See Dave, a lot of young kids don't actually think for themselves and take on their parents persona in politics just as they do with football
When they get out into the real world, they actually see and experience everything for themselves and sometimes can even take on a differing point of view.
I know you like to debate things and you feel like you have an open mind, but i think you need to open it more. |
I wonder though how much of our political views are moulded not only by our parents' but also our friends' political leanings? If you hang out with hippies, you will probably tend more towards voting Green most likely, just as if you study law at uni those around you might make you more conservative. I think it's really important to make our own minds up, with as little influence from others as possible, but in the end I think a lot of our views on stuff are moulded from other people's influences. As for me, I do my best to question everything I hear and not let my own potential biases get in the way of logic or common sense.
| sherrife wrote: | Honestly David you're a smart guy i'm sure when you start learning about the many failures of capitalism you will see how shitty it is.
The only reason we even have this debate about whether capitalism is any good is because we are in the fortunate top x% of the world that are not living in relative or absolute poverty. Eg. most people in the world see a crisis in world health at the moment due to pharmaceutical companies patenting everything, whereas western countries see that whole saga as an philosophical/intellectual issue to be discussed rather than life or death, millions of people dying each year ongoing disaster.
Even when i say that, i say it from the perspective of not really being able to grasp the enormity of the situation, it's all abstract in my mind and in the minds of most of us westerners. In anycase, my point is that we can only contemplate thinking this system is okay because we're in the top x% that are benifitting from it... too bad the majority of the world is going backwards. |
Agreed Omar, to some extent. The main concept of capitalism is all about personal advancement over others, so yes it certainty isn't the perfect system by any means. But our political system isn't based on pure capitalism, as Australia at least has such a good welfare system (especially compared to America). Correct me if I misunderstood, but were you also touching on globalization? Because I was studying that last semester, and there are arguments that it does actually in theory benefit the third world countries, if they implement it properly and the corporations don't cheat the system (as they so often do).
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Proud Pies
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
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| David from Canberra wrote: | | Agreed Omar, to some extent. The main concept of capitalism is all about personal advancement over others, so yes it certainty isn't the perfect system by any means. But our political system isn't based on pure capitalism, as Australia at least has such a good welfare system (especially compared to America). Correct me if I misunderstood, but were you also touching on globalization? Because I was studying that last semester, and there are arguments that it does actually in theory benefit the third world countries, if they implement it properly and the corporations don't cheat the system (as they so often do). |
David, our current Welfare system and minimum pay standards have fallen dramatically this year. We ARE on a collision course WITH the American system. The fallout from the current round of Welfare to work and minimum pay is going to show in the next 3 years, with or without a change of government.
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Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
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