One Back on Mal Michael

[Brown26]

the key is who presumes success - supporters are allowed to - players and coaching staff have to keep wroking to get there.

What positions do you think we need to fill to get the premiership which can't be filled from our current list?

And I think Josh will play Ruck cause Rocca will be an excellent CHF, more consistent than ever before. Remember he's not old, and he's a big guy - they tend to develop later.



Pies for Premiers 2002, 3, 4, 5, 6....

[MarkT]

Brown26 I think we have gone way off the topic (my fault I know) but for the sake of the debate:

I think the ruck is the obvious one.

As I said, I'd like to see Josh at CHF eventually, but I would really like to see him used in a way so as not to get his body pounded at present. Rocca can play CHF but he cannot play 120 min. He does not and will not have the aerobic capacity. It is genetic and due to his muscle type. He should be used as a burst player and I think will eventually be a FF or an off the bench follower/half forward. Eventually Josh and Guy Richards may make a great team in the ruck but it will be 2 to 3 years off and Richards development is not assured. I agree richards is promissing but I have heard so many say he will be a star that have never even see him play.

Key defenders are a problem. Again our hopes are pinned on youth which I don't have a problem with in principle. Cloak may be the answer to CHB but we will have to wait and see. FB will be a problem. Presti is servicable and improving year by year but he lack class. Their is a place for solid defenders but they will be caught out at times and a good team must have a fallback to call on during a game. How many times have we been beaten where a single forward had kicked a bag of 5 or so?

Apart from that, there are a dozen or so players on the list that I would say are not premiership material for one reason or another. I don't want to sound harsh but players such as Dimmatina, Steinfort, Lane, Freeborne, McKee, Wakelin, Wasley (if he stays), Ukovic, Roach etc, individually and as a group, lack something. The will most likely be traded or delisted in the next 2 to 3 years while players like Richo will retire. Hopefully our youth will fill the gaps but we will have to wait and see.

Overall, we potentially have a future team of champions and the coach to turn them into a champion team. The problem is that word potential. Some of them will not make it. That is just how it goes. Someone will be injured and someone will not fullfill their promise.

The real point is, we need to try and win the premiership each and every year because the following year is an unknown quantity in terms of players, oppostion, injuries etc.

That does not mean you don't look to the future but that you cannot only look to the future. We have the best group of young talent I have seen at any club ever. That is a huge reason for optomism. It is not a reason to assume success because the combined talents of our current list will not win a premiership. It CAN form the neucleus of a premiership team IF we do everything right AND we have luck.

[This message has been edited by MarkT (edited 19 October 2001).]

[Brown26]

I agree we've gone off the topic, and I also think we'll have to agree to disagree on the following points:

Rocca at CHF - You say bad, I day good (also - it's not all genetic, he can work on it, he was poor two seasons ago, better last year, hopefully he can get to a good level this preseason.)

Fraser in ruck - I say star, you say no, CHF

Presti is a very underated FB and is actually very good. He could play CHB I think too if we can get a good regular FB out of Kinnear, which is doubtful.

The last point you make is interesting though, and I disagree with it in principle as much as anything else. You say we have to try to win the premiership every year. I agree, but I don't think the way we do that is to "buy" players, or fill gaps with other teams rejects. We need to get Croad, Misiti and Everit, to win the premiership next year, do you want us to trade all our young players, have a list of 32, to fit them under the cap?

Of course not - cause that would ruin us for years to come. The way we win a premiership every year is to get a nucleus of a premiership side - that started three years ago - and to build on that nucleus with young tallent. Obviously we aren't going to exclude older players, but the nucleus has to keep changing over a period of many years by putting younger players in at the bottom, while older players retire at the top.

Anyone who doesn't fit that criterion is a fringe player - you don't get Misiti and expect to win five years of premiership sucess, but you get Didak, put him into the bottom of the premiership nucleus, and in five years he's the next Buckley, and you've put someone else in at the bottom to be the next Didak.

It's a question of putting young guys in to replace champions three years before the champions retire. We need firstly to establish that nucleus though, and it does not include any players you buy from other clubs for 1.5 million over three years, it includes Lonie, Lockyer and the two draft picks you would have traded for him.

It's a matter of getting the premiership nucleus first, and that comes from young guys. What's the point of buying Croad to stabalise CHB when you have to get rid of our up and comming HBF superstar and multiple draft picks? So we have to have faith in some young guys - they might as well be Kinnear, Roach, Richards and Cloak as four young guys other clubs don't want.

Also, the addage that "you have to trade quality to get quality" is true, so it's not like we can trade Craod for not so good players. You haven't said this, but it means that we HAVE to give up some good players to get good players, and there's no point getting a bad CHB, or an average one, cause we've got plenty of those already!

This team will be good, excellent, great. If we need to stabalise it anywhere, we have the off-field expertise to do it. But I don't agree we should rip the nucleus of a dominant era apart to maybe win a premiership in 2002.

That's a philosphy as much as anything else - do you go for wins now, or try to get lots of wins inthree or four years time? It's personal choice, and I know a lot of us a sick of waiting for sucess.

I think, though, that this nucleus will have an injection from the bottom next year of Kinnear, Cloak and Didak. That will be the nucleus. I don't agree with buying players from other clubs for immediate sucess, and I don't agree with trading heaven and earth for a good young guy. A reasonable trade, but what they were asking for Croad, Misiti (originally) and Everit was ridiculous.



Pies for Premiers 2002, 3, 4, 5, 6....

[molloymagic]

I think it's great that you have diverted of the topic because it's in the past, Mal Michael has gone to Brisbane and has won a medal,(I hope Molloy does knock him down when they next play*S*)but collingwood got Jarrod Molloy,someone who is proud to be a magpie. so can we just put the subject of mal michael aside because in my opinion,Jarrod Molloy is waaaaaaay better than Mal anyday*S*.



Jarrod Molloy RULES!!!!

[MarkT]

Good point Molloymagic. We will have to keep an eye on Jarrad when they next play.

Brown26 I don't actually disagree with you on much.

I agree Josh would be a star anywhere he playes because he is that talanted. The question is where he is best suited and where the team is best suited in the short term. I think that is probably where we differ.

I don't think Rocca can't play good footy at CHF either, just not for a full 4 quarter effort. I like his as a bust danger man accros HF or a FF.

That is just my preferance in use of resources.

I definately don't want to trade all our young tallent for a Craod, Misiti or an Everrit. In fact I don't want us to get more than one or two players in total.

I wouldn't trade any of our young stars for Misiti because he is an on baller and, good as he is, we don't need him. I'd do a deal with draft choices or fringe players like those I mentioned earlier if possible. I would trade for Croad but not what Hawthorn wanted.

I would give probably more than you for Everrit but that is a judgement call at the end of the day. I think he would get us top 4 and make us a premiership contender next year and for the next 5 years. That is just my opinion and you don't have to share it at all.

That does not mean I'd trade away our future. We needed to do some earlier deals with fringe players and midrange draft picks for early picks and keep trading those picks with fringe players until we had something to offer St.Kilda in a trade. The biggest thing we had to offer St.Kilda was the ability to take over Spider's pay so they could deal with the salary cap which must now be a real problem for them. That gave us bargaining power for the final deal. Now that is all very difficult to co-ordinate but that is what I expect of out recruiting people. If the deals cannot be done then we don't deal.

I don't know whether we tried hard enough or even at all or whether we decided from the outset we were happy with our list. I hope it is not the second but if you are right then would have been the correct choice.

We will never know the real answer but if we win the premiership next year I will find you and buy you as many beers, or whatever you drink, as it takes to get us singing the club song at Vic. Park up a goal post on Saturday night with ecveryone from "Nick's" on backing vocals - DEAL???