The Silence is killing me.

[David]

[Culprit]

True, we can go on and on.

[Culprit]

[Magpie 24]

[Nutmeg]

Interesting Dave that you take such a tunnel-vision right vs wrong view on this issue.
As for blaming the Palestinians for starting this, you might want to be careful about spouting this kind of naive declaration.
Let's not forget that Israel has only been a state since the end of WW2.
No side in this conflict is blameless - that is what makes the whole thing so hard to solve. Neither side is prepared to give and inch, and with Israel being backed by the US, they are in a much more positive situation both as regards fire-power AND diplomatic support. (and we all know how US foreign diplomacy works!).
As for claiming suicide bombers target civilians while the Israeli armed forces 'mostly target terrorist leaders' is a depressing reflection of your level of sophistication in approaching this issue. You claim that Israel have 'no reason' to target civilians - you do realise that they drove bulldozers into Gaza and proceeded to knock down Palestinian houses while the civilians fled.

I am not Pro/anti-palestine or pro/anti-Israel - the whole situation is a complete mess. How do we fix it? Buggered if I know.........

[David]

Culprit, I may have over-reacted, but statements like "70% of the US government are Jewish" is the sort of thing that is stated by anti-semitic Islamicists and Nazis (I had the misfortune of coming across a Nazi site recently, and this was just the sort of claim they used to back up many of their arguments).

Nutmeg, I never said that either side was blameless... you will notice that I made it quite clear in my earlier posts that both sides have committed offences, but that this does not mean they are equally guilty. You use the example of homes being bulldozed. Obviously that sucks. I wouldn't want my home bulldozed. But why did it happen? Wasn't it to build that wall, to protect Israel's citizens from suicide bombers? That's what I recall anyway.
Not for the first time, you claim a lack of sophistication on my part by citing my statement that 'the majority of Israeli military operations are directed at terrorist leaders'. Interesting. So, therefore, you are suggesting that the government targets Palestinian civilians. What exactly would the point of that be? Would it not serve their purposes more to attack the aggressors, rather than attack innocents and receive international condemnation? Anyway, how many Israeli government officials have been taken out by suicide bombers? None. It is always civilians.
Also, you have misunderstood me somewhat. I didn't say that the Palestinians started the whole conflict. There were many different factors involved, which were largely based on the creation of the state of Israel. There are many different views on this, but I believe that the Jews deserved their own state, in their own homeland. The Muslim nations surrounding the new Israeli state obviously didn't think so, and over a period of 30 or so years did their best to destroy Israel. So, you're right, the Palestinians didn't start it as such. However, in the last couple of decades, Israel has often sought peace, while the Palestinians continually respond with violence, after which Israel responds with violence, and the cycle continues until there is a short period of peace for a few months, until there is another suicide bombing. The Palestinians did not start the conflict, but it is they who make the first strike many times these days.

And Nutmeg, I do not take a tunnel vision of anything really, so that accusation is misplaced. I often try to seek the facts behind everything, and I consider the act of trying to understand the opposition's viewpoint one of the methods of doing this. I acknowledge that I may not be aware of all the facts on the issue, which is why I requested Culprit to provide sources to back up his claims, which I found rather puzzling.

[HAL]

Say no to the example of homes being bulldozed. Indeed it does suck.

[Donny]

Were there terroist leaders hiding in the power station, David ? I know I asked you about this before but you didn't reply.

Using your sentence, "What exactly would the point of that be?" (bombing it)

[David]

Admittedly I haven't been watching the news in recent times so I haven't heard that story. Do you have a link to it Donny? I can't really comment until I know some of the background, so I'll throw it back to you.. why do you think they did it?

[Donny]

I quoted the news story in my first post about it.

Here's another report: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060628/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_262

"Israeli warplanes fired at least nine missiles at Gaza's only power station, cutting electricity to 65 percent of the Gaza Strip, engineers at the station said. The station's three functioning turbines and a gasoline reservoir were engulfed in flames, raising the specter of a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, where water pumps are powered by electricity."

The result of this action has left hospitals and hundreds of thousands of civilians without power and water.

David, I can see you have genuine concern but to comment about such a complicated situation ("the majority of Israeli military operations are directed at terrorist leaders") without at least reading the news reports seems unwise.

[HAL]

That remark was either too complex or too simple for me. We were talking about Palestinians did not start the conflict but it. The ALICE chat robot can follow many things, like our discussion about Here's another report httpnews. But I did not get that.

[David]

As I suspected Donny, there was more to the story than just what it seemed on face value. All the same, I agree, it was pretty unnecessary on Israel's part, and the excuse given (that it was done "to impair the ability of the terrorists to transfer the kidnapped soldier") seems quite weak. All the same, it is another example of retaliation after a pretty much unprovoked attack by militants (see below)*. I'm not saying it's right, indeed in this case it clearly wasn't, but it backs up my point that the Palestinians always seem to make the first move.


*I gathered from the article that the militants took the Israeli soldier captive because Israel have had 10,000 militants imprisoned... well I believe Israel has a moral right on behalf of its citizens to not release them.

[Culprit]

[David]

Culprit I have a few major disagreements with this.
A) this Jew Watch website may not be openly anti-semitic, but I do wonder what its motives are... conspiracy theories are OK, and some of them even turn out to be true, but I think this website is over the top.
This is the caption supplied with a picture on the front page:

[Pa Marmo]

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread and would like to say that it is refreshing to have a thread in VPT not deteriorate into a punch on. Well argued gents.