No.24 versus No. 24....long post, but passionate

[junkboy75]

OK, let’s get one thing straight. I am sick to death of people who are asking for c’wood to bend arse over backwards to get trent croad. Everyone’s entitled to their opinions, but some are just plain ridiculous. Hitman, I respect your view, and I always enjoy reading posts by opposition fans who have constructive things to say, but you are just plain wrong if you think that croad is better than tarkyn lockyer.

First, the stats for 2001:

Croad
Games=24, kicks=221, marks=114, handballs=91, goals=27

Lockyer
Games=20, kicks=225, marks=96, handballs=148, goals=19

Tarks has had more kicks and more handballs than croad, despite playing 4 less games. Croad wins out on marks and goals but then again, they play in different positions, and 19 goals is not a bad return for a player that has only been introduced into the midfield this year and was doing the kick-ins last year. If tarks had play 24 games, then based on his averages for 20 games, his stats would be:

Games=24, kicks=270, marks=115, handballs=177, goals=22

This shows he would have beat croad in all categories bar goals, and then only by 5!

OK, so you’re saying, stats don’t tell everything. However, I would take tarkyn’s disposal abilities over croad’s any day. do you seriously think that croad will beat tarkyn in a one on one contest over who is the most accurate with disposals – kicks, handballs, goal kicking? I think not. It is a well known fact that croad’s disposal by hand or by foot is ordinary at best, shocking at worst. On the other hand, tarkyn is consistently one of the most accurate kicks in the c’wood side and sets up many goals with his disposal. The stats above do not take into account the number of assists that can be credited to tarkyn.

Croad obviously has an ego problem as well. I heard from a good source at hawthorn that apparently there was a huge falling out between croad and the other hawk players, which ultimately led him to quit. Is this the type of player c’wood would want to trade an absolute champion for?? hawthorn had a great year, but that was because of hay, barker, rawlings and Crawford, NOT croad. Why do you think that the hawks were prepared to fob him off so easily. They are banking on potential greatness, rather than proven abilities. Well tickle me stupid, I would hate for any club to give away the world for him then wait patiently for him to turn into the next koutoufides!!!!

Tarkyn lockyer is a pure FOOTBALLER, yeah that’s right, not an athlete, but a footballer. And unless I’m mistaken, the last time I looked, we played football not jump hurdles. For anyone to suggest that tarkyn is a fair trade for croad, let alone tarkyn+licuria+buckley+fraser+the c’wood runner+a record seller+eddie’s budgie, WHAT DRUGS ARE YOU ON?? as they said in the Castle, tell them they’re dreamin’

The bottom line is, c’wood needs a RUCKMAN. Croad is NOT a ruckman. Here are some examples of ruckman – MCKERNAN, PORTER, EVERITT, KEATING, STAFFORD, KING, etc. As shown above, I would rather have tarks in my side than croad. If we can get him in a good deal – great. However, the hawks will benefit more from Lockyer than the pies would with croad. Let’s not suck the dicks of hawthorn, Melbourne (or whoever) and bend over how many barrels just to get someone we don’t really need.

"consectatio excellentiae"

[This message has been edited by junkboy75 (edited 04 October 2001).]

[Danzy Rocks!!!]

about tarks disposal - he kicked taz the ball when taz took "the mark"

NICK DAFFY, YOU SUCK!!! ... no not you rory ... i wasnt really looking at you...

[MarkT]

You can't compare stats between a key position player and an on baller. The thing that made Carey so great in his prime was the fact that he got Ruck Rover stats at CHF (well sort of CHF).
Croad is not better than Lockyer at all. They are both good players still improving. The thing is, though, that Croad is a key position player. You cannot get quality key position players as easily as on ballers.

I rate Buckley at his best as good as Carey at his best but he is not nearly as valuable becuse a winning CHF does more to win games than a winning on baller. Look at past Premiers and look at the CHF position. Even Brisbane with thier unusually good depth of quality on ballers rely on Brown or someone else to hold down CHF.

Given our abundance of running players, Croad should be a target.

[PiesPremiers]

i love tarkyn, champion player, and one of the best leaders at the club.
BUT, croad is in a different class. he may not be a leader, or a disciplined player like tarkyn is, but croad is only 21 and looks like he is going to be up there with the best players in the league!
he will be always rated higher than lockyer because croad plays an explosive brand of football and can win the game off his own boot. lockyer will never!


Dan

[The Hitman]

Trent Croad - Australian and Victorian Representative.

Trent Croad - CHB, CHF, midfielder...

He has been there, done that. He has finals experience, he can play anywhere on the paddock, and often does in one game.

Lockyer is a midfielder who is no better than Daniel Harford, but just stands out because there isn't much competition for midfield spots at Vic Park.

Lockyer ain't gonna get much better. Croad is 21 and has a world of improvement to make (which he no doubt will...), which is a scary thought. I know who I'd rather have in my team...

I wonder who is worth more on the market?

The Hitman

"I come in peace..."

[magpie joffa]

Just be careful hitman i dont like where your postings are headed
if you think you can come in here with your pathetic hawthorn bullshit propaganda think again ok mate....and think very quickly because i am not going to read any more crap like that again, dont reply to what i have just said beacuse i will just tell you to GET STUFFED.

DONT BRING A KNIFE TO A GUNFIGHT...sean connery...the untouchables !!...DARREN MILLANE SIMPLY THE BEST...BETTER THAN ALL THE REST #42..GO OUR GLORIOUS BLACK AND WHITE MAGPIES FOR EVER UNTIL DEATH!!

[junkboy75]

hitman, we will just have to agree to disagree. but, I find it a bit strange that you're sticking up so strongly for croad when he has quit the club. sure he's been good for the hawks but mate, it's no good saying that you'd prefer him in your team, because he is gone.

I'm not disputing the fact that croad is a good player. I'm also not disputing that key position players win games. if croad does come to c'wood, he wouldn't play in the forward line. would he play at CHB? what about ben kinnear?? now before you say who is kinnear compared to croad, kinnear is good only he has been starved of opportunities. he is just as athletic as croad - BK is a personal trainer - also in the pre-draft tests, kinnear dominated in all the strength, endurance and fitness exercises.

of course croad is "worth more" in the market than lockyer, but can you name all the players who are over-inflated in their worth? how about ben holland, heath black, even nick naffy. it just means that some clubs will just get ripped off. as I said, he has big wraps on him because he is seen as the prototype modern football player, much like kouta. but it takes more than athletic ability to be a great footballer. he may develop and peak late, then again he may not. his off-field distractions have shown that he is clearly not concentrating solely on his football.

also, I disagree that tarks stand out because of lack of competition in the midfield. I think the opposite holds, and that c'wood actually have a surfeit of midfielders. why do you think a great player like scotland wants to leave? - because of a lack of opportunities. and tarks WILL continue to improve. in all the years that I've seen him play, he has improved each year. last year it was his kick-out skills at the highest level, this year his goal-kicking. how will he improve? maybe he will be a shannon grant type midfielder who kicks 40+ goals a year? BTW if harford is so great, why are hawthorn going after a high draft pick to get a midfielder.

"consectatio excellentiae"

[MarkT]

Hitman, I was with ya for a minute there.
To say there isn't much competition for midfield spots is showing your ingorance of the subjest matter. There is more competition at Collingwood for midfielders than anywhere else - Brisbane included. That is not say we have a better midfield than Brisbane because thier top 4 are at the top level. We have more at the next level and some of those will rise to the elete level in a short space of time (O'Bree if he isn't there already, N.Davis, Didak, Adkins, L.Davis, etc.).
Lockyer is at the top of that next level qand will soon be regarded in the top bracket of AFL on ballers. Tark's would get a game at any club (as would Croad). He is significantly better than Harford and is still improving. He had better pace and disposal than Harford and is much better defensively. Part of the reason the Hawks so despiratly need a midfielder id that Harford is one of thier best. By that I mean, theirs best (apart from Crawford) aint that good.

A simple illustration:
Woods is a player I admire. He puts in, no doubt. He wouldn't get a game at Collingwood. In fact he was in and out (admitadely more in than out) when we were CRAP! Lockyer would be light years ahead of him and would walk into the Hawks side. On top of that he is a real leader. He took Lonnie by the hand and guided him through his first season while Lonnie played as a runner in the back half (Lockyer's old position).

[buckers5]

trent croad vs tarkyn lockyer both good player tarkyn is a future vice captain in the making only because josh will be captain but good quick key position players with height strengh dont grow on trees

ps there is way collingwood will let tarkyn lockyer go anywhere

[Joel]

I'd have Lockyer over Croad...ANYDAY!!

JDF

[The Hitman]

First of all, I am not spinning Hawthorn propaganda Joff, i am expressing an opinion, and just because it doesn't match yours, doesn't mean that it is wrong.

Secondly, Trent Croad HAS NOT walked out on Hawthorn. I know this for a fact. Hawthorn have not traded for him, and he has not walked out. He is in brown and gold, but whether or not he gets traded is another thing.

Last but not least, I would say that yes, Lockyer is a quality midfielder, and I may have underrated him. He is a good player, make no bones about it, but I think Croad is just as good at the moment, and will get better in the next year or two.

It's all about player development. Collingwood players such as Lonie, Lockyer, Fraser, et al, have all had to develop and have been 'thrown in the deep end' much quicker than players at Hawthorn.

While Croad has a hell of a lot more pressure and hype built around him, the club haven't put him in a position where he has needed to step up. Same with Greene, Nat Lonie, Ozzie, and McPharlin at Glenferrie. Croad will step up to the superstar level, and in my humble opinion, that puts him ahead of Lockyer.

I don't expect you to agree, but that is just my opinion.

On a passing note, at Collingwood, you all assume Croad will be a CHF or CHB. I think he is going to be a midfielder. He has all the attributes that a good midfielder has, but he is taller, stronger, and can kick the ball a country mile...

The Hitman

"I come in peace..."

[woodsman 90]

Joffa's right propaganda!!!!!!!

hittman
before you try to convince the magpie faithfull maybe you should try to convince your own, after all isn't it the dawks who are trying to offload your so called champion, [they must see real quality there], further more what constitutes a midfielder in your book, can't kick strait, can't find a target with his hands, shit can barely find the footy, and win a game off his boot, just one question, WHEN?????????

[Greg J]

And lets face it, Croad kicked a point NOT a goal. Tarks would have kicked a goal!

Greg J