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Pa Marmo
Side by Side
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617
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Turkish Pie where are you, for it is impossible to get anything other than babel and crud out of magpie greg. I dont for one minute agree Christianity is violent. Nearly all of the scriptures you mentioned were from the old testament which was written before the birth of christinity and the rest were sadly taken way out of context.
P.S. mg did you happen to see a current afair on tele tonight. Seems a couple of muslim boys have been charged and found guilty of rape and the said in court their religion made it permissable for them to do this.................................very interesting.
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Genesis 1:1 |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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one would conclude that, therefore religion sucks. But I have a feeling that those sort of rules in the Old Testament and Koran were more a reflection of society at the time rather than the religion itself. That society was the basis of that religion. So instead of blaming religion, you merely need to blame the culture of that time in history. People may look back on this time in history and say, wow they were pretty f***ed up. It's purely perspective. So many issues are like that, and it doesn't help at all that most people will believe any good line they hear. Don't deny it, I think we're all guilty of it..... so in the end what we have is christianity, which started out a slightly disturbed religion and ended up being the principal source of charity to less fortunate countries and also poor people here. And provided people with a lot of hope. Islam I can't say anything about, I don't know exactly what good things they have to their name, although I'm sure there are some. Certainly the muslim people I'm friends with at school, they're honest decent people who believe in treating other people with respect, which I believe their religion (in part) has taught them to do. So who thinks religion sucks?
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| nuxta wrote: | | did you happen to see a current afair on tele tonight. Seems a couple of muslim boys have been charged and found guilty of rape |
I wouldn't watch that piece of crap tabloid show if I were you, no doubt they milked the fact that they were muslim as much as they could.
I don't think the argument is really going to be resolved. MG and Nuxta, every post you just continue to say the same thing, Nuxta "well Islam is evil, quote quote quote" Greg "well jesus is evil quote quote quote" neither of you are actually providing an argument against each other's points.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Pa Marmo
Side by Side
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617
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If calling a spade, a spade and telling the truth makes you a bigot...................then hey..............Im a bigot. In all our postings I have not said a single bad word about any single living muslim. All I have done is dealt in facts as they are written down. Magpie Greg, I have no ill feelings toward you or Turkish Pie. All I have done is put forward my opinion and thoroghly enjoyed the discourse, without name calling and character assasination on my part. Turkish Pie, you seemed able to enter this debate without letting emotion get in the way and that is comendable and Greg not everyone who disagrees with you is a bigot. Just for the record, no matter what Greg says I have friends from many different religions (including islam) and many different nationalities and I am yet to find a person of any particular colour or creed that I hate.
So to put this business to bed, good night and God(christian)Bless.
Nuxta.
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Genesis 1:1 |
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Dr Alf Andrews 
Fitzroy Victoria Bowling Club
Joined: 20 Oct 2001
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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| nuxta wrote: | If calling a spade, a spade ... makes you a bigot...................then hey..............Im a bigot.
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I think the term "spade" means much the same as "[snip]", doesn't it?
Hahahahaha !
See you at the Klan meetin' next week, Nuxta. We should have a chat. I'll be the guy in the white hood 
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Oops. That damn swear filter got me again. Them damn African-American-lovin' yankees and their poe-litical coe-rrectness. It's gettin' that way you caint even have a good lynchin' no more.
Last edited by Dr Alf Andrews on Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I'm glad you thought it was funny |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Is there even still such a thing as the KKK? i've heard of white supremacists and all that, but surely those white hoods are so last century....
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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TurkishPie
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Location: Abbotsford
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| nuxta wrote: | | TurkishPie wrote: | "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers"[3:85]
Once again for the benefit of the readers i have underlined the word hereafter. He shall be one of the losers in the hereafter, not in this life. |
Thats interesting turkish pie based on what we read in this verse "Allah will afflict disbelievers with a painful doom in this world and the Hereafter". 9:74
You will notice I undelined the relevant words, for the readers benefit of course.
| TurkishPie wrote: | | You know nuxta, you are fast running out of excuses to hate the Islamic faith. |
Want a bet.....Cruelty in Surah 9
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5
Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway. 9:73
For disbelievers there will be a painful doom. 9:90
Believers must fight for Allah. They must kill and be killed , and are bound to do so by the Torah, Gospel, and Quran. But Allah will reward them for it. 9:111
Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123
Very peace loving indeed Turkish pie.............case closed me thinks. |
nuxta, I think we owe it to our readers to quote these verses in their entirety. I will complete the verse(s) and qualify them for you. The 9th Surah is called Surah Tevbe, which ironically translates to repentance, dispensation. Firstly let’s look at the first 13 verses.
“(This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement” [9:1]
“So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers” [9:2]
“And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve” [9:3]
“Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty)[9:4]
“So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful” [9:5]
“And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know” [9:6]
“How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Messenger; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty)” [9:7].
“How (can it be)! while if they prevail against you, they would not pay regard in your case to ties of relationship, nor those of covenant; they please you with their mouths while their hearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors” [9:8]
“They have taken a small price for the communications of Allah, so they turn away from His way; surely evil is it that they do”[9:9].
“They do not pay regard to ties of relationship nor those of covenant in the case of a believer; and these are they who go beyond the limits” [9:10]
“But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know” [9:11]
“And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist” [9:12]
“What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Messenger, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers”[9:13]
I previously explained the context to you, but I will do it again. For Muslims fighting(even in self-defense) was strictly forbidden for the first 12-13 years. This includes the period when the Muslim's migrated from Mecca to Medina(622). The following year the Prophet made a covenant with the Meccan pagan's which allowed for the Muslim's to make pilgramage to Mecca from Medina, every year for the next ten years. This covenant is called the Hudeybiye agreement. The Meccan's broke this covenant and killed Muslim's who made pilgrimage to the city. The Meccan's were then given 4 months to repent and adhere to the covenant(hence the reference to the 4 months in 9:2), once the 4 months were up they still continued in their "wicked" ways, disregarding the covenant. Then permission was given to fight the Meccan pagan's(in self defence).
“Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them”[22:39] Also see [22:40].
nuxta, now read 9:4 and then read 9:5 in its entirety and 9:6. Make sense? Also note that the idolaterers in question here are not Shinto Japanese or Shaolin Buddhists or Native Americans. They are those Meccan Pagan’s(Mushrikun) who made the Hudeybiye agreement with the Prophet Muhammed(PBUH) and then reneged and attacked the Muslims.
“O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination” [9:73]
The context of this verse is the Tebuk War. I would encourage you to research further this war. No one in their right mind likes or appreciates war. However, if it prevents terror, evil, rape, pillage, tyranny, oppression, persecution etc. then and only then it is justified, and even then one cannot transgress limits(see[22:39-40]).
“They swear by Allah that they did not speak, and certainly they did speak, the word of unbelief, and disbelieved after their Islam, and they had determined upon what they have not been able to effect, and they did not find fault except because Allah and His Messenger enriched them out of His grace; therefore if they repent, it will be good for them; and if they turn back, Allah will chastise them with a painful chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall not have in the land any guardian or a helper” [9:74]
As in the previous verse [9:73], the context is the Tebuk War. Allah will chastise them(unbelievers and hypocrites) in this world and in the hereafter, not because they are apostates but because they declared war on the Muslims(just as unbelievers and hypocrites declared war on Jesus(PBUH) and his followers). Note that, “and they had determined upon what they have not been able to effect”, this refers to an assassination attempt on the Holy Prophet.
Indeed, there would have been some apostates among the unbelievers and hypocrites, but this Noble Verse doesn’t directly order the killing of anyone who deserts Islam. The following are other verses in the Quran that I know of which make reference to apostasy, take a look at them, you will see that the death penalty is not sanctioned at all: [4:137] [24:54] [18:29] [27:92] [10:99-100] [10:108] [15:2-3] [24:54] [41:40] [42:6] [2:256].
“And the defaulters from among the dwellers of the desert came that permission may be given to them and they sat (at home) who lied to Allah and His Messenger; a painful chastisement shall afflict those of them who disbelieved” [9:90]
This verse makes reference to the Bedouin Arabs who had no faith in the will of Allah and as a result lied to get out of military service.
“Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement” [90:111]
If somebody persecutes and wages war on you, you would fight back to the death wouldn't you? Throughout history, if descent men and woman did not sacrifice their lives for a just cause, could you imagine the state of the world today. A good example of this is the Afghani Mujahideen who were martyred while fighting the Communist Soviets.
“O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)” [9:123]
Again it is a war scenario, the unbelievers are the same Meccan pagan/polytheists who waged war on the Muslims.
| nuxta wrote: | | Turkish Pie, you seemed able to enter this debate without letting emotion get in the way and that is comendable |
I appreciate the kind words and would like to assure you that I am only acting in accordance with the Islamic faith…
“And do not argue with the followers of earlier revelation(Jews and Christians) otherwise than in a most kindly manner - unless it be such of them as are bent on evildoing and say: “We believe in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, as well as that which has been bestowed upon you: or our God and your God is one and the same, and it is unto Him that We [all] surrender ourselves” [29:46]
nuxta I don’t think you are a bigot, but you are ill informed. I personally would hate it if my opinion on some issue was based on wrong information. I would strongly encourage you to at least read the entire verse and try to understand the context of it before you copy and paste it from the anti-Muslim website.
Also, let me know when you are ready to talk about your religion. I have some questions I want to ask you, and I promise I will not be making any out of context biblical quotes.
May the Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon all of us. |
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the pain
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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One thing to keep in mind when arguing about what is written in the "holy" books is that they were all written hundreds of years ago when beheadings, stonings and the like were common practice.
Over the years as we have evolved into a more “cultured & peaceful" society the interpretation of these holy books has also changed. Islam (mainly of the fundamentalist variety) is simply yet to catch up with the rest of the world.
I personally am of the view that all religions are a crock of shit and are only there so the leaders can exploit the “believers” and gain power, money and etc without actually earning it. This is why they are largely intolerant of other religions and have crazy rules. But to each their own and if people want to believe in something just for the sake of it it’s up to them.
To the point of my post it doesn’t matter what was written in some book hundreds of years ago because at the end of the day the religious leaders (imams, priests, rabbis etc) interpret them however they see fit. The problem does not stem from a certain book or religion but the crack pot dick heads that are willing to exploit it for there own sick purposes. Whether that is money and power or as an excuse to murder other human beings. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I assume you mean our current problem. |
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Dale61
You can't have manslaughter without laughter.
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Location: /home/room/chair
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To all those claiming to be a Muslim, I wouldn't expect any of you to be going to the footy on Monday as you'll have to work. Why? Seeing as though Easter is a Christian 'festival', and you don't agree with Christianity, your religion then deems it unacceptable to have a four day weekend, and thus, you'll be reporting for work both on Friday and Monday.
With that in mind, you won't be going to the Queen's Birthday match either, seeing as though the Queen is a symbol of a Christian society, and you'll also be missing the ANZAC Day game as well.
Afterall, it was the ANZAC's who paid the ultimate price to ensure we are able to live the way we do now, and that ain't as a Muslim. |
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TurkishPie
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Location: Abbotsford
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| the pain wrote: | | Over the years as we have evolved into a more “cultured & peaceful" society |
Do you really think so?
Let us compare today’s “cultured and peaceful” society with that of pre-Islamic Arabia. Note that we refer to this pre-Islamic period as “the period of ignorance”.
In pre-Islamic Arabia people would be killed by swords and bow and arrows. In today’s society, people are killed by knives, M16’s, AK47’s, daisy cutter bombs and guided(?) missiles.
In pre-Islamic Arabia people smoked hashish to get high, in today’s society people have access to a variety of drugs such as heroin, cocaine etc..
In pre-Islamic Arabia, blood feuds would exist between families and tribes that would last for generations, while in today’s society gang wars, football hooliganism and race riots prevail.
In pre-Islamic Arabia, woman would be bought and sold in tents, in today’s society woman are bought and sold at brothels and street corners.
In pre-Islamic Arabia, gambling and horoscopes were practiced freely. In today’s society, these are legitimised multi-million dollar industries.
Here is one which is really contemporary, pre-Islamic Arabia was a very male dominated society. Pagan Arabs would, out of shame, bury their female babies alive. The only difference between this atrocious practice and abortion is that abortion does not gender discriminate.
When we think about it today’s society, western or eastern, is not as cultured and peaceful as we think.
Having said that, Pain you are correct about the fact that there are a lot of crackpots out there who exploit religion to suit their own purposes. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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well abortion is a different issue Turkish Pie, but I can see what you're saying. I think though what the pain was saying is very similar to what I've been trying to say.... religions aren't allowed to be politically incorrect these days, christianity has had to become more sanitised so that it is accepted in western countries. With Islam, attitudes are much the same in those countries today as they were a thousand years ago. I'm not saying modernizing religion is a good thing nessecarily, if you believe in a religion you should probably believe in its original form. However it seems undeniable that islam is the only religion that hasn't advanced and/or become more sanitised.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I think so, but I'm not sure. Ask if it is. |
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Pa Marmo
Side by Side
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617
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But back to Dale61`s point, are you going to work monday and friday and not except payment for these days????????????????????just curious.
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Genesis 1:1 |
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