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masoncox
masoncox
Joined: 31 Aug 2015
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^
It is quite simple really
Hine recruiting
2005 great
2006 very good
2007 very poor
2008 very good
2009 poor
2010 poor
2011 pòor
2012 poor
2013 poor
2014 poor
2015 poor
2016 poor
2017 unknown and not entirely up to Hine
There in lies our problem couple that with a lousy coach and you get what you have got. |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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| masoncox wrote: | ^
It is quite simple really
Hine recruiting
2005 great
2006 very good
2007 very poor
2008 very good
2009 poor
2010 poor
2011 pòor
2012 poor
2013 poor
2014 poor
2015 poor
2016 poor
2017 unknown and not entirely up to Hine
There in lies our problem couple that with a lousy coach and you get what you have got. |
So you have graded Hine during that period according to your opinion when I have said constantly he needs to judged against other clubs spotters
Care to rate Adelaide ( no flag in that time )
Bris ( no flag )
Carlton ( no flag )
Pies ( one flag )
Essendon ( no flag )
Free ( no flag )
Geelong ( 3 flags )
GWS ( no flag )
GCS ( no flag. They have been around for 7 years )
Hawks ( 4 flags )
Kangas ( no flag )
Dees ( no flag )
Port ( no flag )
Richmond ( one flag )
Saints ( no flag )
Swans (one flag )
Eagles ( one flag )
Dogs ( one flag )
One more time, by all means compare him against his peers but to compare him and “ deduct points “for everyone he gets wrong is not the way to grade an inexact science.
As I said earlier, wouldn’t about half of those clubs love to have done as badly at the draft as Collingwood have in that time. In fact only 2 clubs have won multiple flags in that time and admittedly none have done it better than Hawks and Cats. |
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Raw Hammer
Joined: 11 Sep 2008
Location: The Gutter
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| Pies2016 wrote: | | masoncox wrote: | ^
It is quite simple really
Hine recruiting
2005 great
2006 very good
2007 very poor
2008 very good
2009 poor
2010 poor
2011 pòor
2012 poor
2013 poor
2014 poor
2015 poor
2016 poor
2017 unknown and not entirely up to Hine
There in lies our problem couple that with a lousy coach and you get what you have got. |
So you have graded Hine during that period according to your opinion when I have said constantly he needs to judged against other clubs spotters
Care to rate Adelaide ( no flag in that time )
Bris ( no flag )
Carlton ( no flag )
Pies ( one flag )
Essendon ( no flag )
Free ( no flag )
Geelong ( 3 flags )
GWS ( no flag )
GCS ( no flag. They have been around for 7 years )
Hawks ( 4 flags )
Kangas ( no flag )
Dees ( no flag )
Port ( no flag )
Richmond ( one flag )
Saints ( no flag )
Swans (one flag )
Eagles ( one flag )
Dogs ( one flag )
One more time, by all means compare him against his peers but to compare him and “ deduct points “for everyone he gets wrong is not the way to grade an inexact science.
As I said earlier, wouldn’t about half of those clubs love to have done as badly at the draft as Collingwood have in that time. In fact only 2 clubs have won multiple flags in that time and admittedly none have done it better than Hawks and Cats. |
Flags is the pass mark? Really?
Iwould say multiple finals appearances and then prelims is the pass mark. Making a Grand Final and then actually being lucky enough to win it on the day the next mark.
But using a flag as a benchmark is ludicrous:
_________________
Est. 2002 |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ Jezza, thanks for the press conference. Much easier digesting it this way than via th video. Appreciate the work.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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| Raw Hammer wrote: | | Pies2016 wrote: | | masoncox wrote: | ^
It is quite simple really
Hine recruiting
2005 great
2006 very good
2007 very poor
2008 very good
2009 poor
2010 poor
2011 pòor
2012 poor
2013 poor
2014 poor
2015 poor
2016 poor
2017 unknown and not entirely up to Hine
There in lies our problem couple that with a lousy coach and you get what you have got. |
So you have graded Hine during that period according to your opinion when I have said constantly he needs to judged against other clubs spotters
Care to rate Adelaide ( no flag in that time )
Bris ( no flag )
Carlton ( no flag )
Pies ( one flag )
Essendon ( no flag )
Free ( no flag )
Geelong ( 3 flags )
GWS ( no flag )
GCS ( no flag. They have been around for 7 years )
Hawks ( 4 flags )
Kangas ( no flag )
Dees ( no flag )
Port ( no flag )
Richmond ( one flag )
Saints ( no flag )
Swans (one flag )
Eagles ( one flag )
Dogs ( one flag )
One more time, by all means compare him against his peers but to compare him and “ deduct points “for everyone he gets wrong is not the way to grade an inexact science.
As I said earlier, wouldn’t about half of those clubs love to have done as badly at the draft as Collingwood have in that time. In fact only 2 clubs have won multiple flags in that time and admittedly none have done it better than Hawks and Cats. |
Flags is the pass mark? Really?
Iwould say multiple finals appearances and then prelims is the pass mark. Making a Grand Final and then actually being lucky enough to win it on the day the next mark.
But using a flag as a benchmark is ludicrous: |
Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big believer of sustained success because flags are hard to win but I couldn’t be bothered researching every clubs finals appearances. Geelong have won something like 2 of their last 9 finals appearances. That looks good in terms of appearances.
The point is, premierships or not, there are around 50 % of the AFL clubs at least who have performed far worse than Hine in recruiting.
I’m not here to be a Hine apologist but to measure his performance against a 100 % success rate is simply not a fair guide.
The right way to judge Hine is to measure him against his peers.
There are still “ supporters “ who want to blame Hine for the Sharenberg, Freeman injuries. That is a joke.
Then To expect to still recruit well after we trade away two first round picks for Treloar and then first come into the draft in the thirties, is another stretch to expect miracles. That is a footy department decision in consultation with Hine. We don’t know who pushed for that trade.
And as I posted before, when we finished on top of the ladder in 2010 / 2011, you were never going to get access to elite talent at those drafts given the concessions to the expansion clubs ( and that doesn’t even include all their zone exclusions in that time )
He’s definitely made some blues but it’s all relative to what is at your disposal on the day. If you don’t have the picks or can’t get access to the talent early enough, then you can’t expect miracles. |
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masoncox
masoncox
Joined: 31 Aug 2015
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^
Lets look at it another way.
When was the last time Hine picked an elite player?
Don't know...well it was way back in 2008 with Sidey and an excellent pick up in Beams at pick 28 or around that mark.
We picked up Ball and Jolly in 2009 ...both were rated as elite then. So that recruiting decision was relatively easy.
Since then....nothing in the A plus category.
Elite/A graders are what win flags and all the others are just fillers.
Hine has been filling the donuts for 10 years with no Hine specials to wrap our big mouths around.
Picking up Treloar and giving 2 top picks looks to me to be paying over. Treloar won't ever be a superstar.
Very good player ...yes...superstar no.
The recruiting of collingwood over the last 10 years both drafting and trading has been poor.
We had a rolled gold team in 2011 and immediately in 2012 started dismantling.that team.We traded out or retired prematurely many of our heroes.
We gave away guys like Witts for peanuts and a player like Seedsman who could at least run and carry and kick long because he didn't fit the culture.
We are where we are because of our choices and yes some of our problems relate to bad luck.
But the luck wheel always turns. |
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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood
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| masoncox wrote: | ^
Lets look at it another way.
When was the last time Hine picked an elite player?
Don't know...well it was way back in 2008 with Sidey and an excellent pick up in Beams at pick 28 or around that mark.
We picked up Ball and Jolly in 2009 ...both were rated as elite then. So that recruiting decision was relatively easy.
Since then....nothing in the A plus category.
Elite/A graders are what win flags and all the others are just fillers.
Hine has been filling the donuts for 10 years with no Hine specials to wrap our big mouths around.
Picking up Treloar and giving 2 top picks looks to me to be paying over. Treloar won't ever be a superstar.
Very good player ...yes...superstar no.
The recruiting of collingwood over the last 10 years both drafting and trading has been poor.
We had a rolled gold team in 2011 and immediately in 2012 started dismantling.that team.We traded out or retired prematurely many of our heroes.
We gave away guys like Witts for peanuts and a player like Seedsman who could at least run and carry and kick long because he didn't fit the culture.
We are where we are because of our choices and yes some of our problems relate to bad luck.
But the luck wheel always turns. |
Here's a list of some of those players we traded out:
Wellingham - undisciplined (and wanted to leave anyway)
Heater - undisciplined
Daisy Thomas - his ankle was smashed
Dawes - one track pony who didn't have enough strings to his bow
Beams - family situation where he needed to leave
Marley Williams - undisciplined
Witts - lack of opportunity
Lumumba - discipline issues
Jack Frost - skill issues
Nathan Brown - age caught up with his pace
Cloke - age caught up with him
The problem isn't who we let go. All premiership teams have an attrition rate of about 10% per year. The problem is who we brought in, which has been the subject of robust debate for some time. |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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| masoncox wrote: | ^
Lets look at it another way.
When was the last time Hine picked an elite player?
Don't know...well it was way back in 2008 with Sidey and an excellent pick up in Beams at pick 28 or around that mark.
We picked up Ball and Jolly in 2009 ...both were rated as elite then. So that recruiting decision was relatively easy.
Since then....nothing in the A plus category.
Elite/A graders are what win flags and all the others are just fillers.
Hine has been filling the donuts for 10 years with no Hine specials to wrap our big mouths around.
Picking up Treloar and giving 2 top picks looks to me to be paying over. Treloar won't ever be a superstar.
Very good player ...yes...superstar no.
The recruiting of collingwood over the last 10 years both drafting and trading has been poor.
We had a rolled gold team in 2011 and immediately in 2012 started dismantling.that team.We traded out or retired prematurely many of our heroes.
We gave away guys like Witts for peanuts and a player like Seedsman who could at least run and carry and kick long because he didn't fit the culture.
We are where we are because of our choices and yes some of our problems relate to bad luck.
But the luck wheel always turns. |
There is only one way to look at it and that is to compare Hine against his peers. Surely that obvious. If you say he is worst recruiter in league compared to every other recruiting manager, thats your call.
But to constantly isolate criticism on everything he has got wrong is not fair.
Nobody gets it right 100% of the time.
I could ask you to look at it in a different way too. You say the 2011 draft return was “ poor “
We picked up Jamie Elliot in 2011 from GWS pre list trade for next to nothing.
From the 2011 draft when we had no access to anyone decent for reasons I have already outlined but over time we bought into that draft by securing Adams and Hoskin - Elliot.
So with some down the line trading, we can look back and say we secured Elliot, Adams and Hoskin Elliot for Shaw, a third round pick and very little for Elliot. A few years on and that’s not a bad return from the 2011 draft considering we couldn’t get into that draft until very late.
You can’t just look at that draft and say we picked up Jackson Paine and that’s it ( Elliot doesn’t appear as a draft pick which he effectively was )
Trading and drafting are fluid, it’s not as easy as looking down a draft order from a particular year and saying that was crap or otherwise. |
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masoncox
masoncox
Joined: 31 Aug 2015
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^
In 2011 we traded to get back Marty Clarke from GWS.
Elliot was the steak knives in that deal..happened to be good knives
but the actual steak in Marty Clarke was no good.
We got Elliot almost by default. |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| FFS peoples, let it go. The past is done and dusted. I'm only interested in how recruiting this year and beyond. |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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| masoncox wrote: | ^
In 2011 we traded to get back Marty Clarke from GWS.
Elliot was the steak knives in that deal..happened to be good knives
but the actual steak in Marty Clarke was no good.
We got Elliot almost by default. |
How funny, just as well Hine saw something that GWS didn’t. |
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scoobydoo
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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How good would Stewart be without Hooker or Daniher around him?
He is very average & it’s taken him 5 years to become
Average. |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | FFS peoples, let it go. The past is done and dusted. I'm only interested in how recruiting this year and beyond. |
RB, you would ( possibly ) know my posts well enough by now that I don’t usually get caught up in tit for tat.
These type of threads annoy me. Always retrospective, always after we lose and always when someone we didn’t pick, has an ok match. Yawn.
This is even the second ( or more ) thread on the same players.
It’s always the same tiresome vultures who just love to hover above with their over simple explanations of Hines many failings, like he is the only recruiter ever to have made a blue.
Obviously thats not the case but some people find that difficult to understand.
Anyway, happy Easter. Go Pies. |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| Pies2016 wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | FFS peoples, let it go. The past is done and dusted. I'm only interested in how recruiting this year and beyond. |
RB, you would ( possibly ) know my posts well enough by now that I don’t usually get caught up in tit for tat.
These type of threads annoy me. Always retrospective, always after we lose and always when someone we didn’t pick, has an ok match. Yawn.
This is even the second ( or more ) thread on the same players.
It’s always the same tiresome vultures who just love to hover above with their over simple explanations of Hines many failings, like he is the only recruiter ever to have made a blue.
Obviously thats not the case but some people find that difficult to understand.
Anyway, happy Easter. Go Pies. |
Tru dat. Happy Easter P2016.  |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| I’m pretty sure it’s the second stupid thread on this subject in the last week. |
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