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Johnson#26
Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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| Quote: | | Knee jerk, simply reactions to problems such as "sack the coach" aint necessarily the answer. |
Agree. The Saints did it with Stan Alves and look where that got them!? No rushed decisions - have faith in MM. With the group coming through, particuarly if Billy and Brent could become decent players in the future, we have a very, very good line up in 2007. Should MM be there for that? YES! |
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Damien 
Me Noah & Flynn @ the G
Joined: 21 Jan 1999
Location: Croydon Vic
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I was expecting more opposing views to my original post given the amount of anti-MM sentiment floating around here lately.
Lets not talk about Hafey or what the problems have been since 1990. The club today off-field bears no resemblance to those days.
Mick should not have to worry about his job in the short-term. The board should give him a mandate to coach for the long-term future and that means playing the kids.
I take my hat off to Alistair Clarkson, he has done it at Hawthorn and many suggested he was jeopardising his future. Rather it may end up being the thing that ensures he continues with Hawthorn next year.
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'Collingwood are the Bradmans of Football'
The Herald - 1930 |
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Warbler
Joined: 12 Mar 2003
Location: Tyaak Vic
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I'd settle for beating Carlton , Richmond & Essendon every time we play them
- oh and a few flags along the way would be nice |
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spoljar 
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Location: Lynbrook
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I define success on two levels:
1. Regular Finals Footy - This is first and foremost IMHO. I would say that in a 10 year period, you would want to play finals about 7 times to be regarded as successful team. Basically a successful club is able to do this by playing good, tough and consitent footy through the course of a year and maintain that level over the majority of the 22 rounds! Finishing on top of the ladder is a lot harder than winning a Grand Final IMHO!
I take my hat off to Sheedy in this regard as he has been able to get his team to the finals for the majority of his 25 years as a coach!
2. Premierships - If you are able to play finals footy over a regular period, that should eventually translate into premierships. Yes there has been examples of this not happening to such teams as Collingwood and Geelong, but atleast you give yourself every chance of this happening! An example was under the rule of Hafey. Turned us into a hard working, consitent unit that played regular finals footy. This in turn allowed us to contest a number of grand finals and atleast gave us a shot at it.
Personally I can hold my head up higher with making the finals and a grand final loss any day than missing the finals and being a team regarded as the easy beats! |
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Cannibal
Joined: 10 May 2004
Location: Buninyong
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| Cam wrote: | | Ultimately, when you have 4 of your best players out, every week, it makes it damn hard. |
This is stating the bleedin' obvious, but, frankly, is also a pure cop-out. Both Brisbane and Port Adelaide won have premierships over the last four years despite not being able to put their best sides on to the park every week. FFS, it's only a couple of years since we were all whinging about Brisbane being able to develop enormous depth through their salary cap concession, but then Port went and won a flag without such a concession, and suddenly all the cap whingers have returned to their deep, dank holes.
The whole point about developing depth is to be able to remain competitive week in, week out, even with injuries, suspensions and loss of form! If the only way some of you think we're going to win consistently if we have absolutely no players out, then you're admitting that we've made absolutely no progress whatsoever over the last couple of years. The simple fact is, we got real lucky in 2002/03 when we had our top ten players on the park virtually every week. We should not be relying on such luck again. It just ain't gonna happen.
I define success as achieving your absolute best, through maintaining a competitive spirit, giving absolutely 100% of yourself every time, accepting the fickleness of fate with good humour, remaining positive even when the world around you seems to have turned pitch black, and by knowing that there was absolutely nothing more you could have done to fend off defeat. I hold to a belief that the harder you work, the luckier you get but, it's not really luck, it's the hard work paying off by making things look easy.
Eddie and the club's administration have achieved success by those criteria. They've turned around a club on the brink of bankruptcy into one whose financial fortunes improve every day. Eddie gives his all for the club and bleeds alongside us. So long as he and the admin people do nothing dumb, our financial security for the long term is assured.
Mick Malthouse and the team achieved on-field success in 2002 and 2003 by those same criteria (even 2001 could be considered successful, as we improved to the point of looking like making the finals). Even if we lost games, we knew the players had a red hot go, and, whilst we might have been unhappy with the result, we were not with our overall progress.
Unfortunately, they have not done the same in 2004 or this year to date. To be blunt, they have failed, and failed miserably at that.
In many other threads, I've referred to specific issues I personally feel could have been done better and I'm NOT referring to the players who many supporters loved leaving the club. To be frank, I agreed with Mick's belief that we couldn't win a flag without further improvement and, because those actions were taken in a positive attempt to get better, I'm content that they were made for all the right reasons, even whilst I was sad to see blokes who bled for the club leave.
I'm referring more to matters such as the side's poor attitude eg last Monday, when it was clear the players weren't playing as a team or giving it a red hot go. I've mentioned that Mick's "bake" at 3/4 time was poorly timed - it should have been made before the game to ensure the guys went in ready to play their guts out. They didn't, so Mick and the coaching staff must take some of the blame for that, as well as the players themselves.
I'm referring more to matters such as Mick's pig-headed inability to admit that he's been wrong at times, when making such an admission would constitute success in that we'd know he was addressing the problem and trying to change, to improve if you will.
I'm referring more to matters such as Mick sacking Terry Daniher for being his own man and not falling in line, despite the obvious on-field success Daniher was achieving with our forwards.
The current, broader problem we face right now are that it has taken last Monday's abject miserable failure and the consequent public spleen-venting before Eddie, Mick and some of the senior players have even started to confront the on-field and coaching mistakes. Will they live up to their fine public words at the selection table tonight, though?
If the vastly under-performing senior guys get the flick to Willi this week and the club shows clearly it is no longer prepared to accept such chronic under-performance in the seniors and will promote players performing at Willi, then I will feel the blood-letting will have been worth it. Successful, if you wish. The first step along the hard road to ultimate premiership success.
If the club doesn't follow through on all those fine words, and make the changes it's intimating will be made, if the players don't play with pride in the guernsey they wear, then we're still abject miserable failures.
_________________
Glory Glory Good Old Collingwood, Glory Glory Hallelujah,
Collingwood's The Greatest Team The World Has Ever Seen,
And The 'Pies Go Marching On (in Black and White Stripes Forever!). |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Let us try to break it down into parts. What was the second? |
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Damien
Me Noah & Flynn @ the G
Joined: 21 Jan 1999
Location: Croydon Vic
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Cannibal I cant agree with your comments re TD's sacking.
I'm not sure if you are privy to the workings of the inner sanctum - I'm not - but what I do know is that the Coach should have absolute freedom to determine his coaching staff and if MM and TD couldn't work together then TD had to go - end of story.
The board have empowered MM to make those decisions and until that changes MM will determine his staff.
I'd love to see someone like a Mick McGuane there who appears to have a very sharp footy brain but if MM cant see him being a part of his team then it aint gunna happen.
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'Collingwood are the Bradmans of Football'
The Herald - 1930 |
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Cannibal
Joined: 10 May 2004
Location: Buninyong
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It's a weak manager who thinks he knows everything and can't work with someone with a different mindset who proves his ideas work. Same applies to coaches.
_________________
Glory Glory Good Old Collingwood, Glory Glory Hallelujah,
Collingwood's The Greatest Team The World Has Ever Seen,
And The 'Pies Go Marching On (in Black and White Stripes Forever!). |
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Damien
Me Noah & Flynn @ the G
Joined: 21 Jan 1999
Location: Croydon Vic
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agree with those statements but as I said I'm not in a position to know what really happened.
_________________
'Collingwood are the Bradmans of Football'
The Herald - 1930 |
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cooldewd 
DEFENDER OF THE FAITH
Joined: 09 Apr 2003
Location: Wrenville
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| perthmagpie wrote: | At the moment I would partially define success for us as:
-Having 3 to 4 players nominated for the Rising star award this year (Rowe, T.Cloke, Rusling and a new Shaw). |
2 are yet to play a single game...though with the tragic way things are, it will happen sooner rather than later.
| perthmagpie wrote: | | -Having Travis Cloke, Cameron Cloke, Rusling or a new player kick 5 in one game. |
Can't see Cam doing it. Rusling has yet to even play a game and Travis will play up the ground I would think.
| perthmagpie wrote: | | -Having our 5 year ruck problem being solved once and for all with Fraser and Richards teaming well together. |
Richards has a fragile body, so we are highly unlikely to ever get 22 games out of him in a season. Fraser is not a ruckman...he is a decent half forward.
| perthmagpie wrote: | | -Seeing Bucks play again with definite signs his injury problems are gone for good. |
Even if they are "gone for good"...how long can a 33 year old slowing superstar play for? One more year? Two tops? Hardly building for the future.
| perthmagpie wrote: | | -See Didak play a blinder in the midfield once fit. |
We need more than "a blinder" from Didak in the midfield when he is fit. A succession of blinders would be the order of the day - however, Didak does not have the aerobic capacity (the "tank") to play in midfield for a full game. He is likely to play in attack more often than not.
| perthmagpie wrote: | | -See Rhyce Shaw further improve his kicking on the run (and start slamming through some goals). |
A fine improvement from a player that has been on the list for 5 years....but what you get is what you see...he isn't going to suddenly improve in his skills.
| perthmagpie wrote: | | -See Taz start kicking straight. |
Tazz should be better than what he is. His goal kicking percentage is simply not good enough. It all depends on whether Tazz wants to take the next step.
| perthmagpie wrote: | | -See Davidson play half a dozen promising games and not get injured. |
Hmmm....given that when I last checked his injury is an achillies, the same injury that will sideline Rocca for the whole season, I do not know where this false optimism comes from. If he plays at all this year it will be a minor miracle.
| perthmagpie wrote: | | -See Tex hold down a key forward post with more contested marks. |
It seems Tex is earmarked for CHB by the look of things. A nice kick and a great physical specimen....will be persisted with at this stage.
| perthmagpie wrote: | | -See Ryan Lonie finally find his correct position. |
You should say "see Ryan Lonie play a reasonable game at Williamstown to justify a recall and then play the lad on the half forward line to maximise his wonderful kicking."
| perthmagpie wrote: | | None of this is about winning games. Its all about the future and hope. While there's hope the future can wait a while. |
Where is this hope coming from? Two years in a row our season has been snuffed out by round 5.
No matter yard stick you use - WE ARE NOT SUCCESSFUL.
It is wonderful that we have the most money in the bank, the best chocolate bars and the coolest members hats....but we are failing dismally on the field.
This line "Malthouse will leave our list in better shape than Mathews or Shaw" is a myth of epic proportions.
The bumbling Shaw left us with:
A 26 year old Buckley
A 25 year old Paul Williams
A 25 year old Sav Rocca
A 21 year old Anthony Rocca
A 25 year old Scott Burns
A 22 year old Simon Prestigiacomo
A 19 year old Chris Tarrant
A 20 year old Tarkyn Lockyer
A 22 year old Mal Michael
A 18 year old Heath Scotland
A 21 year old Paul Licuria
A 32 year old Gavin Brown
A 31 year old Gavin Crosisca
That is a core of a fine side with only Brown and Crosisca at the end of the line....the rest were young with many years in front of them and all STILL playing.
Try doing a similar list now....it would be embarrasing.
By the way....Cannibal, that was a great post.
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© The Dude ®
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
Martin Luther King Jr |
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3rd degree 
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Location: John Wren's tote
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How old was Michael Christain!
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" Ohhh Banksy and out comes the Note Book".
www.facebook/the hybernators |
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Johnson#26
Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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| Quote: | | Richards has a fragile body, so we are highly unlikely to ever get 22 games out of him in a season. Fraser is not a ruckman...he is a decent half forward. |
Are you writing him off, cd? He could still become the next Spida Everitt (not as a forward, but ruckman). |
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uuuuu..... The LoneSTAR
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Location: Under negotiation
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Good post Damien!
I'd also love to see a Malthouse/Collingwood dynasty,... a successful one of course! And am more than happy to give him time - as you say, were it not for injuries, we'd be having a much better 2005 i suspect and the mood on this board would be upbeat.
As most of us here are not privy to in house coaching & recruiting information, we need to trust the powers that be when it comes to our list management & on field performances,....... I.E Malthouse!!
However, even you must admit that there are certain aspects of his reign that deserve to be questioned, despite our limited insight??
For example - I'd love to know exactly what happend with Scotland & why OR how about Williams still in the 1's ?? |
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Cannibal
Joined: 10 May 2004
Location: Buninyong
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| Cannibal wrote: |
The current, broader problem we face right now are that it has taken last Monday's abject miserable failure and the consequent public spleen-venting before Eddie, Mick and some of the senior players have even started to confront the on-field and coaching mistakes. Will they live up to their fine public words at the selection table tonight, though?
If the vastly under-performing senior guys get the flick to Willi this week and the club shows clearly it is no longer prepared to accept such chronic under-performance in the seniors and will promote players performing at Willi, then I will feel the blood-letting will have been worth it. Successful, if you wish. The first step along the hard road to ultimate premiership success.
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Thank you, guys, you've made the right decision, whether we win on Sunday or not.
Now, let's see if the lesson sinks in and the remaining under-performing senior players pull their finger out of their a*se and hit the Saints real hard on Sunday. Having a red hot go will atone for many sins over the last few weeks. Have pride in the guernsey, fellas. The supporters are behind you. Go for it!
_________________
Glory Glory Good Old Collingwood, Glory Glory Hallelujah,
Collingwood's The Greatest Team The World Has Ever Seen,
And The 'Pies Go Marching On (in Black and White Stripes Forever!). |
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magpie meg 
Joined: 12 Oct 2003
Location: Croydon - Victoria
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great post.
perthmagpie - an even better one - it makes you think about the future of the footy club and see how bright it will be and not just looking at the negative things like a lot of people here like to.
Yes success is ulitmately defined by premeirships and i along with every other collingwood supporter would nothing more than to see us win a flag. But until that is a real possibilty (us having our best side on the park - and im not saying that we have to have every one of our best players put there but the majority so we can cover the others - unlkie now were we struggle to put a good senior side on the park) i will settle for signs of real improvment in our middle tier players ie. Rhyce Shaw - well were already seeing that this year. Richard Cole - his continuing on from where he left of last year (on the way up) and hopefully the likes of lonie and swan etc will stand up and be counted. They are what we would define as success a this very moment.
Seeing our younsters on the park and playing some good bits of footy and prooving why they got drafted and that MM knows what he is doing.
And our senior players leading and not getting injured and teaching the next generation collingwood players the way to play and lead.
All in all i just have to say again what a great post this was - and im glad that there are supporters out there looking at the bigger picture (that is out of the crap footy we are playing at this very moment!)
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Partyn & the pies is there nemore to life??? |
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