Belief

[Pa Marmo]

Pay attention Assassin you will make a fool of yourself other wise. The bible clearly says it took Noah and his sons over 100 years to make the ark. And you prove they couldnt live to be this old in the pre flood environment.

[London Dave]

[Donny]

Is nothing sacred ???

You two blokes attack the Bible and now Assassin is poking fun at the Koran.

Next you'll be telling us The Lord of the Rings is fiction !!

[Joel]

Each to their own Donny. Why should the bible (or religion) be considered sacred to people when they don't believe in it?

Personally, I don't have a religious background, so why should I believe the Bible is sacred?

Sure, the Bible is sacred in the eyes of some, but that doesn't mean that others are not allowed to have an opinion. However, I don't think anyone has said that there is anything wrong in being a believer, it is personal choice (in Australia).

[Donny]

My post was satirical, Joel.

[Joel]

Ahhhh, me being too serious. Sorry mate.

[Pa Marmo]

London Dave said-All of the following assertions made in the Bible are scientifically false or impossible, so get your 50 prominent scientific wizards onto some of these. I look forward to your proof that Pi=3, the earth is flat with four corners and the discovery of the window in the sky that lets in rain. If you can fiqure out the latter, drought is over and the farmers will love you!

Dave as it is Friday and I have just got home from work I will make sure to answer each and everyone of these so called mistakes or fallacies, but please leave me a few days grace so as to do justice to my response, and I must prepare myself for this evenings game.

[David]

This argument was always going to be stupid..... discussions of religion will never go anywhere cos atheists and christians have had to back up their views all the time. There is not one argument that they haven't heard before.... by the way Assassin, every single line that you listed could be argued against...like the 'Earth doesn't move' ones had more to do with the church's interpretation than what it actually meant eg....still you atheists are convinced that you're right, most christians I would imagine are convinced of their belief, so argument is just pointless.

[Pa Marmo]

Of to Church guys but Iwill start to post the refutations to London Daves so called misnomers this afternoon and I will be supplying scientific evidence and quotations as well..........T.T.F.N.

[Pa Marmo]

The earth is the centre of the solar system. This teaching of the Bible was the basis for the persecution of Galileo by the church.
All forms of observation science tells us we live on a stationary earth, The theory of the rotation and travel of our earth is based on flawed Copernican mathematics. Refer to the following web sites for further study. http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/geocentr.htm http://www.fixedearth.com/ http://www.geocities.com/armedconventicle/geocentrism.html

Earth is about 6000 years old, as calculated from the genealogies in Gen and Luke 3.
Yes I believe the earth is approximately 6000 years old and I will include some points and the links where this info can be found to support it. Evidence for a young world http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4005.asp How old is the earth? http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/re1/chapter8.asp The earth: how old does it look? http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v23n1_earth_how_old.asp

Earth was created in seven days (Gen 1).
The bible says it was created in six days and the seventh was a day of rest which is where we get our seven day week I presume.

Sun and stars were created after the earth was created (Gen 1:16).
And the problem with that is?

There was "night" and "day" and "light" on the earth before sun was created (Gen 1:3-5, 14-1 .
No where does it say there was night and day it say there was evening and morning which is only referring to a division in time. The light before the sun was to show that the sun does not sustain us God does (God is light)

Plant life existed before sunlight existed (Gen 1:11-1 .
So your telling me plants cant exist one solitary day without the sun.

Birds were created before land animals (Gen 1:20, 24).
And the problem with that is?

Heaven is above, earth below (Jer 10:11, 31:37, 1 Thess 4:16-17).
So heaven is above the firmament and the earth is below (not to hard to understand)

The sky is solid, a "firmament" (Gen 1:6, Job 22:14, Isa 40:22).
Firmament \Fir"ma*ment\, n. [L. firmamentum, fr. firmare to make firm: cf. F. firmament. See Firm, v. & a.] 1. Fixed foundation; established basis. [Obs.] Custom is the . . . firmament of the law. --Jer. Taylor.
2. The region of the air; the sky or heavens.
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. --Gen. i. 6. And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament. --Gen. i. 14.
Note: In Scripture, the word denotes an expanse, a wide extent; the great arch or expanse over our heads, in which are placed the atmosphere and the clouds, and in which the stars appear to be placed, and are really seen.
3. (Old Astron.) The orb of the fixed stars; the most remote of the celestial spheres.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

It has windows through which the rain falls (Gen 7:11).
The speech used in this portion of scripture was figurative just to make it poetic and easy to understand

Earth has four corners, and floats on water (Isa 11:12, Ps 24:2, 136:6, Rev 7:1).
That is only making reference to the four points of the compass and your argument is purely semantics

Earth is a circular disk (Isa 40:22).
The scripture here is just showing that the world is round

Earth is flat (these verses were used for centuries by the church to prove this: 1 Chron 16:30, Ps 93:1, Jer 10:13, Dan 4:10- 11,
Zech 9:10, Matt 4:8, Rev 1:7).
Not one of these verses mentions a flat earth. And the church you are referring to is the catholic church and the true Christian church has never trusted the catholic church

Earth does not move (Ps 93:1, 96:10, 104:5, 1 Chr 16:30).
Reference: All forms of observation science tells us we live on a stationary earth, The theory of the rotation and travel of our earth is based on flawed Copernican mathematics. Refer to the following web sites for further study. http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/geocentr.htm http://www.fixedearth.com/ http://www.geocities.com/armedconventicle/geocentrism.html

Death or illness is caused by sin (Gen 2:17, Lev 26:16, 21, 25, Deut 7:15, 28:21, 27, James 1:15).
This is correct. Death and all forms of sickness were bought into the world as part of the punishment for mans disobedience

Disease and mental illness are caused by an "evil spirit" or "possession" (Mark 1:21-34, 2:6-9, 1 Sam 16:23, 18:10, 19:9).
Some mental illness and disease are but not all

Leprosy can be cured by following the instructions in Lev 13, 14.
You have taken it out of context. This was a particular task one man was required to carry out as an act of faith. No where does the bible claim this to be the cure for all leprosy

Seed must "die" before it grows (John 12:24, 1 Cor 15:36).
This is an agricultural fact that seeds do in fact die before they can be regenerated. But these scriptures are in fact speaking of a spiritual event taking place in a human beings life.



Snakes eat dust (Gen 3:14, Isa 65:25).
http://www.tektonics.org/snakedirt.html

Every beast shall fear man (Gen 9:2).
Besides the animals we have tamed over time almost every living creature on the planet fears us. Can you prove otherwise?

The ostrich abandons her eggs (Job 39:13-16).
http://www.tektonics.org/ostrich.html

A river divides into four rivers and they flow in different directions (Gen 2:10).
So you are saying that a river cannot branch off into 4 different tributaries and all flow toward separate places because if you are we will get out our atlases and comprehensively prove you wrong.

There was no rainbow before Noah's time (Gen 9:11-17).
Dear London Dave. Since embarking on this task of supplying your good self with qualified responses to your questions, points and so called errors it is becoming apparent that these are in fact not yours but taken form some other source. When using other peoples material it is wise to check that they have in fact done their homework so as to not make yourself look silly. I would suggest you actually read the verses in question and then perhaps repose the question as the scripture reference you(or someone else) has given speaks nothing of rain never falling before the flood.
Thunder is God's voice (Ps 77:1 .
Psalm 77
1 I cried unto God with my voice, even unto God with my voice; and he gave ear unto me. Refer underlined above

Earthquakes are caused by God's anger (Job 9:5, Ps 18:7, 77:18, 97:4, Isa 2:19, 24:20, 29:6, Jer 10:10, Ezek 38:20, Nah 1:5). Or by his voice (Heb 12:26). Or by Lucifer (Isa 14:16).
First I will deal with Lucifer. Analogy:- Did not Hitler cause the earth to tremble with his attempt to take over the world and build the third reich and was the world not in fact shaking in its boots during the bay of pigs, but at no time was an earthquake happening. Dave it is but a figure of speech, surely you would know and understand this fact. Now to deal with Gods anger. Nearly all of these scriptures are prophetic in nature and are speaking of a time when the very God of creation is not only going to shake earth but in fact destroy it.

Earthquakes can occur in heaven (Heb 12:26).
Again figure of speach

Rainwater does not return to the sky (Isa 55:10).

Blood is "life" (Deut 12:23). Breath is "life" (Gen 2:7).
I dare you to give up using either

Value of pi = 3 (1 Kings 7:23, 2 Chron 4:2).
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/494.asp http://www.purplemath.com/modules/bibleval.htm(this one shows working out, can you)

Moon will turn to blood (Acts 2:20).
Is the moon in fact white as we see it nearly every night or brilliant yellow as it appeared in our sky on Friday night or a pastel pink which I personally have seen on many a morning at the rising of the sun, or is it in fact grey as the photos from N.A.S.A show us. With all this variation is it not possible for it at one time or another to be red like blood?

The moon has a light of its own (Isa 13:10, Matt 24:29).
Which is a reflection of the sun but you already knew that

The stars can be made to fall (Matt 24:29, Mark 13:25).
This is talking about a time when we enter the end of days and much more than falling of stars is going to happen.

The bat is a bird (Lev 11:13,19, Deut 14:11, 1 .
http://www.tektonics.org/batbird.html

The whale is a fish (Jonah 1:17, Matt 12:40).
http://www.tektonics.org/jonfish.html

Whales were created before insects (Gen 1:21-24).
So what…….gee that obviously proves the bible is wrong

Jonah is able to survive three days and nights in the belly of the fish without oxygen and without being digested (Jonah 1:17, 2:10).
I take it you are an evoloutionist and as such you want me to believe that we came from a rock which exploded in outer space cooled down for the next few billion years then was rained on for millions of years, which rain then became a prebiotic soup which somehow bought forth the first life forms that have by chance evolved into a being capable of sitting in front of a computer conversing with a similar life form from the other side of this self same rock and you cant believe Jonah could survive 3 days in the fishes belly.

The hare chews the cud (Lev 11:5-6).
http://www.tektonics.org/cudchewers.html http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=178 http://www.grisda.org/origins/04102.htm http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_pamphlet2.html
Some fowl and insects have four legs (Lev 11:20-23).
http://www.tektonics.org/buglegs.html



Levi existed as a person in the loins of his great-grandfather (Heb 7:9-10).
Have you ever heard the saying”just a glimmer in your daddys eye. You don’t seriously take that as a literal statement
Or perhaps you believe potatoes can see as they also have eyes. The scripture was speaking of the fact that Levi was yet to be born but spiritually he paid his tithes through his forbears.

Animals can speak: serpent in Garden of Eden (Gen 3), Balaam's ass (Num 22:2 .
Dear Dave have you considered the parrot or maybe even the cockatoo, and another chatty bird from Australia the Corella? The serpent in the garden was in fact the supreme being of evil in the universe and being such one would expect him to have the power of speech. Balaam’s Ass was empowered by God to forbid the madness of the prophet and is so much easier to believe than the evolution rainy rock theory.

Cattle will produce striped offspring if they see striped poles when breeding (Gen 30:37-41).
http://www.tektonics.org/oddgenes.html

Sun and moon "stand still" (Josh 10:12-14).
Can you prove this didn’t happen are you telling me the sun cant stand still.

Sun's shadow goes back 10 degrees as a sign to Hezekiah (2 Kings 20:8-11).
As He made the sun in the first place He can do with it as He wants

Bees will build a hive in a dead carcass (Judg 14: .
And of course you can offer empirical evidence that they don’t or wont?

An iron axe floats on water (2 Kings 6:5-7).
Obviously a miracle provided by the living God

Eagles will be attracted by a dead carcass (Matt 24:2 . Eagles do not eat carrion.

Matthew 24
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. What has this scripture to do with eagles?

Salt can lose its saltiness (Matt 5:13, Mark 9:50, Luke 14:34).
Of a particularly humorous bent, and proof that Allen's research priorities were off-kilter...He notes Matthew 5:13 -- "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again?" Allen found this puzzling, so he wrote to various salt companies and asked them whether salt ever lost its flavor. They assured him that it didn't, so Allen put down Jesus here for a dumbbell error. Well, of course, it's Allen's time to waste if he wants to, but rather than writing to salt companies he should have picked up a commentary or a Greek concordance. The word here is moraino, meaning "to become insipid; fig. to make (pass. act) as a simpleton:--become fool, make foolish, lose savour". In the context of this verse, it refers to believers being the "salt" of the world. Now believers themselves won't lose their "saltiness" except in one way - by becoming like the world. Hence, if Allen wanted to know how salt "loses" its savor, the answer is by contamination. (I have also been advised, but have not been able to confirm, that Dead Sea salt, unlike our modern, refined table salt, does lose its flavor. A reader noted that the explanation may be that "ancient 'salt' wasn't pure sodium chloride, but NaCl mixed with other rock and mineral matter; if it was allowed to get moist, the NaCl would dissolve out and leave behind a pile of tasteless dirt. Thus, in order for the salt to preserve its savor, 'the world' had to be kept out of it." It is also noteworthy that in context, this isn't salt used for consumption in the first place! Malina and Rohrbaugh note [Social-Science Commentary, 50] that the "earth" here alludes to an earthen oven outside the house which was used to bake, and had a dung heap nearby; the dung was used as fuel and was salted to use as a catalyst to make the dung burn. The reference is to salt that is so exhausted that it no longer makes the dung burn -- not to how tasty the salt is! This goes to show just how little Allen tried to look into the context of these passages.)

Jesus expects the fig tree to bear fruit at Passover (March/April), when it cannot do so in Palestine until May (Matt 21:19-21, Mark 11:13-21).
http://www.tektonics.org/zapfigtree.html


A good tree always produces good fruit, a corrupt tree cannot (Matt 7:17-20).
This is another agricultural fact, orchardists regularly remove the trees that don’t bear good fruit so what is your argument

and my personal favourite,
There is nothing new under the sun. Eccl 1:9

http://www.tektonics.org/proverbiallit.html

Hope all this helps ans remember I have only provided the most base answers to these points so if you want more let me know

[Donny]

Lol, nuxta. You should be writing the new series of Monty Python's Flying Circus soon.

If the above is anything to go on, it should be a scream. What delightful satire. Except the rubbish about the 7 days.

Everyone knows you work for 5 days, go to the footy on the sixth and rest on the Sunday.

[Birdy]

Good stuff Nuxta. Still awaiting the proof from the non-believers that the Bible is fictional. If you plan on reading a book that was written thousands of years ago in the same way you would read a book that was written yesterday, you're bound to interpret it incorrectly. Even though the meaning of half those statements seemed obvious to me when I first read them. Which is why I strongly recommended reading the thing, ALL OF IT, not just a few bits and pieces, or you'll find it difficult to understand the language as some already have.

[Joel]

Sorry to say Nuxta, but I had a look at the first few links, and there is no way they convinced me.

[Donny]

Well, Joel, it would be a bit like a Pies' fan directing any follower of another club to Nick's to 'prove' Collingwood is the only true footy club.

As for your 'qualified' responses, nuxta, they sound awfully like a witches concoction and without your 'figures of speech' and so called miracles to explain the silly bits, there's not much left, really.

Oh, there is your round Earth but any schoolkid will tell you it's a sphere.

[CQ]

my fave is the one about the earth not moving BWAHAHAHA!!

i wonder why it goes light and dark then? surely not our side of the earth being on the 'other side' of the sun!