The Value of a Ruckman - Revisited

[DaicosMagic]

After watching our dominance in the ruck last night and the numerous clear taps to running onballers from the centre square (eg. Buckley's 65m bomb), you can't honestly say that a good centre square ruckman is overrated. Granted we had little opposition in there, but that's how the likes of Gardiner, Darcy and Primus must feel when they play us, licking their chops. How good a feeling was it anticipating with confidence a clear possession out of the centre square due to clean ruck work? It is the missing ingredient in this team. Josh has been getting better by the week, and Walker showed a bit of leap also.

Memo Mr Malthouse: Rocca needs to spend more time in the centre and push forward after centre square ruck work, just like in the GF (if he's fit enough.

[The Prototype]

True, that is what has been killing Collingwood in rest weeks, and maybe now that Malthouse saw a winning combo, he will keep it going. Hopefully this is the start of our ruckmen getting better.

[Adz]

I hope walker stays in the side. He was quite good.

[chalky]

Daics, Revisited? Do we have to? To be quite honest I cannot truely recall a CLEAR tap out of the type you are lauding. Agree we certainly won our share but to then go on to say that THAT was the one specific cause for any goal effect is drawing a long bow. Our dominance at centre clearances was due to the rocket MM fired at the boys regarding their slow starts. They were simply more determined. We may have got the first "touch" at the bounce, but from then on, as always, the ball was in dispute and we fought harder at ground level.
Fraser elevated his game. His true worth was especially noticeable around the ground with some powerful contested marks, which we sorely lacked in the past few games
IMO it is a good midfield that makes the ruckman NOT the other way around. Darcy,White,King, Everitt - top in taps but clearly crap midfield. What would Gardner be without Cousins, Fletcher? - a big body!
Not having a go at anyone here. Just trying to show that ruckmen do not lose games nor do they win them based on tap ruckwork, a skill which I obviously think is over-rated. Give me a dominant midfeild any time!

[DaicosMagic]

Bullshit! Have you watched the replay?

[stoid]

Chalky, how tall are you?????

[chalky]

Centre square tap ruckmen are over rated, honestly. They are the dinosaurs of any side, one dimentional and of no value around the ground. Their disadvantages far outweigh their advantages to the side. Give me a dominant midfield. There is a myth going around perpetrated by those frustrated at reading tap stats that this is the be-all and end-all of ruck work. That dominant tap stats convert to wins. It is a whole team performance that won us the game not centre square tap superiority. Geez, Hawthorn thought Spider would win them a premiership, 2002 Port thought that Primus would carry them to glory via his tap skills. The most telling stat is the centre clearances where we kicked arse and not surprisingly, have been doing so every game this season.
We beat them by 65pts because our midfielders blitzed at the same time and their midfield is crap, not because some tap outs went our way. Also, Frasers' mobility and marking strength all around the ground was the ruck bonus ( he's not a dinosaur) giving the team another avenue to goal.

Did not know height was a pre requisite for having an appreciation for ALL aspects and skills of the game.

[DaicosMagic]

What a one-dimensional response. I'm not saying a tap ruckman gurantees success, but it sure helps. It helps an onballer not having to second-guess what the opposition is going to try to do. Watch Adelaide last night and how many clear possessions were one from a tap out of the centre square. Watch Walker thump the ball forward twice in the final quarter for Collingwood, putting immediate pressure on the opposition backline. Why nullify a ruckman and have a 50-50 when there is a chance you could have a 70-30 chance of getting the ball out of the centre if such a ruckman was at your disposal. The only reason we fail to put teams away in recent seaons (eg vs Adelaide last year in Adelaide, WC 2 weeks ago) is because we are buggered having to work our arses off in the centre.

A centreline of Buckley, Voss and Mcleod with Capuano as Ruckman would lose more often than not against a mediocre centreline with Primus or Gardiner (at best come out even). So just imagine if that same centreline had their own dominant ruckman, the percentage of balls won out of the centre would be critical.

Note: this is about centre square clearances, not around the ground tap work (although watching the way Adelaide get easy goals from tapwork inside their forward 50 shows how valuable a tap ruckman can be around the ground.

[The Prototype]

Ruckmen used to be dinosaurs, but lately most of the ruckmen have some speed and can do other things besids ruck.

[G HUNTER]

WITH A MIDFIELD AS XPLOSIVE AND TALENTED AS OURS A RUCKMAN WOULD HAVE ITS ADVANTAGES BUT OUR AREA OF MORE CONCERN IS IN OUR DEFENCE THE LIKES WITHOUT PLAYERS OF CLEMENTS STATURE AND DRIVE WE WILL STRUGGLE...PRESTI AND WAKELIN AREN'T CONSISTANT ENOUGH AND STRUGGLE AGAINST POTENT FORWARD LINES AND I HATE TO SAY WE WILL BA CAUGHT SHORT AGAINST THE DOCKERS

[hermie]

PRESTI INCONSISTANT he is about the most underated backman in the comp;lets not forget he was injured and our midfield was playing shithouse so oppisition forwards got to see the ball more than normal.cloke made a differance also

[chalky]

Daics, obviously I disagree with you about your hyperthetical centre line of Buckley, Voss, McLeod, Capuano vs Gardiner. I just couldn't imagine them losing anything inside the square regardless of who they were working off. They are all class
Losing centre square taps was not the ONLY reason why we have lost games especially vs WC. Gardiner had 15 mins then the combined efforts of Josh, Stunner and Ant put him back to merely servicable for the rest of the game.
Daics, we got to the GF without a so-called tap ruck, disposing of the more fancied sides who were supposed to win because they would dominate the ruck (which they did) but lost the games anyway.
I don't want to get hyperthetical but, for the sake of debate, could I pose a question - would you welcome a player like Freos Sandilands who would win every centre tap but not much use anywhere else, for a 70/30 advantage?
Mate, I was very surprised MM did not take Everitt pre season. He chose to bolster our midfield instead, obviously prefering the mobility of McKee and Fraser around the ground and the flexibilty this bring to the side rather than winning centre square taps.
I understand your frustration and you make some valid points but we've got what we got. I agree our set up does seem a negative tactic but it has paid dividends and I'm sure we'll reap those rewards soon

[The Prototype]

Everitt is a hot head, and runs of out steam in only a half of football, which would only help only a little bit. What they would need to do is play Fraser and McKee for the first half, and then Everitt for the 2nd half, making him not that effective for us. As I have watched him a few times at Hawthorn I have seen how he has tired quickly (as he did against Collingwood in the Pre-Season) Although there is no doubting his skills as a ruckman, I am doubting his fitness atleasr for this season anyways.

As for Sandilands although I haven't seen him play, well that much, I've heard some good things. And if Collingwood had got him, he would of helped are ruck tremendously.

I think now that Fraser is getting confident in the ruck, and Rocca seems to enjoy the rucking. I think are rucking will be better overall this year, I hope KcKee can find some form, and we'll have 2 resting ruckmen, and one ruckman, which they can share the work. I think Malthouse may have taken notes from the game, and saw how we weren't losing the ruck's that much this week (although I don't know that St. Kilda have a good ruckman anymore, I could be wrong)

[Brown26]

walker only rucked well - only rucked at all - against reiwolt, so I wouldn't be inking him down at a ruckman for next weeks game just yet - he's only young, and we all know ruckmen take a long time to mature... - fraser is improving a lot, every week, but he does like to play against ruckmen like capuano who don't jump early and odn't put so much body on, but he did play well.

you need a good ruckman and a good midfield, either of which can help make up for the other, but the lack of one makes the others job so much more difficult.

Also - when Rocca went into the ruck did you notice (2nd quarter) that we lost the hit outs? not sure if he was having a bad day or what, but fraser did so much better than rocca on saturday. rocca is usually pretty good in the centre, but was well beaten last week.

- Ben

[stoid]

OK, Chalky you wrote that Gardiner had 15 minutes against us. I presume you are talking about the first 15 minutes of the game in which he killed us and helped set up a 37 point lead before we even got on the board. That 15 minutes cost us a game. So I’ll ask you now, what is the value of a ruckman???? See what a great ruckman can do in only 15 minutes.

You also wrote;
“Did not know height was a pre requisite for having an appreciation for ALL aspects and skills of the game.”

No one said, “height was a prerequisite” for anything, but you obviously don’t have “an appreciation for ALL aspects and skills of the game,” because you totally underestimate the value of a quality ruckman

By the way chalky, you still haven’t told us how tall you are.