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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 05 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| Mugwump wrote: | | Utopia can only be approached (albeit never reached) across an ocean of blood. History has made that pretty clear by now. Utopian fantasies of a new “improved” type of humanity have led to the gulag, the guillotine, the concentration camp and the mass murder of intellectuals, yet somehow this repulsive bone-encrusted thing manages to climb out of its sepulchre and remain appealing. |
Throughout the 20th century there were various utopian visions, which were preached through infamous ideologies such as Communism and Nazism and as we know these ideologies had an irrevocable effect on the world as we understood it and something I don't think we'll ever truly recover from. Unfortunately, I don't think we've learnt from the past.
Relating to the notion of forming a utopian society I think the writings of Russian novelist, Fyodor Dostoyevsky, provide a fascinating insight into this philosophical topic and how the idea of a utopian society is extremely dangerous and in essence anti-human. His novel "Notes From Underground" which was published in 1864 is a great example of highlighting the flaws of a utopian society.
In his novel, he mentions that if a Socialist utopia was formed and all human beings had to do were eat, drink and continue the renewal of generations, then this wouldn't last long because human beings in essence want adventure, chaos and uncertainty in their lives rather than living in a static utopia where certainty and comfort is always guaranteed.
The idea of having a system that is so big that the average citizen is disconnected from the bureaucrats running the whole system is dangerous, hence there is a pushback against organisations like the EU throughout much of Europe, and to a lesser extent the UN. That's why many people naturally gravitate to nationalism in some form because they can relate to the idea of history and a shared identity of language and tradition, which isn't artificially created.
The concept of living in a borderless world where a one world government exists sounds like something out of 1984.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ indeed, Jezza, the problem with utopian ideologies is that they attract (i) the simply well-intentioned and naive ; (ii) the intellectual supremacist who wants to think themselves more advanced than their fellows, and (iii) the truly carnivorous power-seekers who know that evil camouflaged in a sentimental morality is the hardest kind to destroy.
It’s a powerful coalition which thrives despite the massive historical evidence of its brutality and destructiveness, and it is now pretty much in charge of our culture. We do not have secret police, but we have the twittermob, the threat to employment, social ostracism and the actual police enforcing codes of speech. It is almost certain that this will intensify.
Of all the many paradoxes of this world, the greatest may be that sentimental, ambitious do-goodery is far more tyrannical and inhumane than tough, sceptical realism.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Jezza wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | Utopia can only be approached (albeit never reached) across an ocean of blood. History has made that pretty clear by now. Utopian fantasies of a new “improved” type of humanity have led to the gulag, the guillotine, the concentration camp and the mass murder of intellectuals, yet somehow this repulsive bone-encrusted thing manages to climb out of its sepulchre and remain appealing. |
Throughout the 20th century there were various utopian visions, which were preached through infamous ideologies such as Communism and Nazism and as we know these ideologies had an irrevocable effect on the world as we understood it and something I don't think we'll ever truly recover from. Unfortunately, I don't think we've learnt from the past.
Relating to the notion of forming a utopian society I think the writings of Russian novelist, Fyodor Dostoyevsky, provide a fascinating insight into this philosophical topic and how the idea of a utopian society is extremely dangerous and in essence anti-human. His novel "Notes From Underground" which was published in 1864 is a great example of highlighting the flaws of a utopian society.
In his novel, he mentions that if a Socialist utopia was formed and all human beings had to do were eat, drink and continue the renewal of generations, then this wouldn't last long because human beings in essence want adventure, chaos and uncertainty in their lives rather than living in a static utopia where certainty and comfort is always guaranteed.
The idea of having a system that is so big that the average citizen is disconnected from the bureaucrats running the whole system is dangerous, hence there is a pushback against organisations like the EU throughout much of Europe, and to a lesser extent the UN. That's why many people naturally gravitate to nationalism in some form because they can relate to the idea of history and a shared identity of language and tradition, which isn't artificially created.
The concept of living in a borderless world where a one world government exists sounds like something out of 1984. |
How closely connected to bureaucrats running the present system do you feel? Does it really matter whether a government governs 30 million or 300 million or 3 billion people? |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Mugwump wrote: | ^ indeed, Jezza, the problem with utopian ideologies is that they attract (i) the simply well-intentioned and naive ; (ii) the intellectual supremacist who wants to think themselves more advanced than their fellows, and (iii) the truly carnivorous power-seekers who know that evil camouflaged in a sentimental morality is the hardest kind to destroy.
It’s a powerful coalition which thrives despite the massive historical evidence of its brutality and destructiveness, and it is now pretty much in charge of our culture. We do not have secret police, but we have the twittermob, the threat to employment, social ostracism and the actual police enforcing codes of speech. It is almost certain that this will intensify.
Of all the many paradoxes of this world, the greatest may be that sentimental, ambitious do-goodery is far more tyrannical and inhumane than tough, sceptical realism. |
There’s some irony here, given that the country you both so admire – the United States – was very much a utopian project, and one that to this day holds dearly to its utopian principles, for better or for worse.
The human capacity to envision a better society is hardly a dangerous one; indeed, we owe everything we have today to such thinking. You may see a fundamental difference between progress-oriented thinking and utopianism, but the only significant difference between the two is how far ahead they look. That may make the latter more radical in its ambitions, but let’s not forget that democracy, freedom of speech and freedom of the press were once deeply radical ideas. We owe a lot to idealism and utopianism.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | ^ indeed, Jezza, the problem with utopian ideologies is that they attract (i) the simply well-intentioned and naive ; (ii) the intellectual supremacist who wants to think themselves more advanced than their fellows, and (iii) the truly carnivorous power-seekers who know that evil camouflaged in a sentimental morality is the hardest kind to destroy.
It’s a powerful coalition which thrives despite the massive historical evidence of its brutality and destructiveness, and it is now pretty much in charge of our culture. We do not have secret police, but we have the twittermob, the threat to employment, social ostracism and the actual police enforcing codes of speech. It is almost certain that this will intensify.
Of all the many paradoxes of this world, the greatest may be that sentimental, ambitious do-goodery is far more tyrannical and inhumane than tough, sceptical realism. |
There’s some irony here, given that the country you both so admire – the United States – was very much a utopian project, and one that to this day holds dearly to its utopian principles, for better or for worse.
The human capacity to envision a better society is hardly a dangerous one; indeed, we owe everything we have today to such thinking. You may see a fundamental difference between progress-oriented thinking and utopianism, but the only significant difference between the two is how far ahead they look. That may make the latter more radical in its ambitions, but let’s not forget that democracy, freedom of speech and freedom of the press were once deeply radical ideas. We owe a lot to idealism and utopianism. |
Well, blow me down ! The US a utopian project.....? It is founded on the idea of individual self-interest, personal responsibility for happiness, and circumscribed government. It also recognizes in its very constitution the need for separation of powers given the corrupt fundamentals of human nature and the risk of tyrannical government.
In all of this, it merely adapted, for a republic of states, the British concept of liberty of the subject under the law, which evolved via Magna Carta, the Case of Proclamations, the Habeas Corpus Act, and the Bill of Rights of 1689 (inter alia). Unfortunately Australians are no longer taught by their leftist educational establishment that Australia’s precious liberty, too, derives from the same source. It is why we shall lose it soon enough.
America has endured because it is so clearly hostile to collectivist utopianism and the tyranny and mass murder that saturate the history of such ideas. I cannot fathom how you could imagine America as a utopian project in any meaningful or rigorous sense of the word.
If you believe that Utopianism means “envisioning a better society” then you are missing the point, I fear. All political parties do that, for that is in the nature of humankind. It is the negation of human nature, including its deeply self-seeking instincts, by collectivist fantasists that create the ocean of blood.
_________________
Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:06 am; edited 3 times in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Maybe in the future we won't have endured because it is so hostile to collectivist utopianism and the tyranny and mass murder that saturate the history of such ideas. |
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Pi 
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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Here is a list of utopian philosophies that made promises like bread and land for all and equality; yet only delivered genocide:
National Socialism.
Communism.
Religious missionaries (yep , most of them, even ones that must not be mentioned negatively)
Here are a few organisations full of utopian moralistic busybodies that made mess of things:
The anti-saloon league: (prohibition was, at the time a socially progressive utopian movement)
The war on drugs: (Nancy Regan, “just say no”)
All of these things have one thing in common; they took an absolutist approach and that is why they failed or made things worse.
_________________
Pi = Infinite = Collingwood = Always
Floreat Pica |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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You’ll need to define absolutism a little, I think. Correlating “just say no to drugs” with Nazism or Communism is a little, er, unusual, as reasoning goes. And “Absolutism” on drugs in Singapore and Malaysia has not made things worse there, by most ordinary reckoning ... so what do you mean ?
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Pi
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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^
Prohibition ,The war on drugs, Nazism and Communism , all promised a new
age of productivity and safety for all.
It was all going to work perfectly but only if everyone just rigidly adhered to what ever the ideology is (absolutism). The actual ideology itself really doesn't matter,
They all required and justified draconian measures to achieve their utopian objectives (however they defined them).
If Malaysian and Singaporean drug laws have been successful or at best effective why has drug use increased?
http://www.christopherteh.com/blog/2015/03/drugs/
_________________
Pi = Infinite = Collingwood = Always
Floreat Pica |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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TBH, unless someone can provide a good working definition of what utopianism actually means, it just sounds like you're each just selectively picking and choosing things you don't like and assigning a 'utopian' label to them. It seems pretty clear to me that America, as its founding fathers envisioned it, was a deeply utopian project, if the term has any meaning at all.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Pi
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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That's the point, a utopia can be defined in the same way as the four headed frog-beast of Frankston... as in it does not and can not exit 
_________________
Pi = Infinite = Collingwood = Always
Floreat Pica |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Lucky for us Frankston doesn’t exist. |
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Dave The Man 
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Lucky for us Frankston doesn’t exist. |
It's lot better then places like Werribee and Dandengong and Springvale
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I am Da Man |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Can we get back to business? |
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Pi
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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| Dave The Man wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | Lucky for us Frankston doesn’t exist. |
It's lot better then places like Werribee and Dandengong and Springvale |
well....there are more than a few sh!tholes around the world (see... i'm back on topic!)
_________________
Pi = Infinite = Collingwood = Always
Floreat Pica |
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