 |
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
^ Agreed, Swoop - but what exactly do you want us to do ?
When Merkel offered to settle Syrian refugees in Germany the illegal immigration industry (which has learnt how to abuse and exploit the asylum system for a long time now) cranked into overdrive and landed a million immigrants in Germany within a year, destabilising German society and much of Southern Europe as well.
Perhaps we should not assume that yesterday's attack was an Islamist attack, though it seems very likely. If so, it seems German children are now likely to suffer and die - like their French and Belgian counterparts - because their elected government has de facto embroiled their society in the Syrian civil war.
In the end, dreadful things have always happened in this world, and the only remedy is for people in communities and nations to fight and suffer for peace and prosperity in their land. We can and should try to protect vulnerable groups in that process until they can return home, but I am not sure what more we can do.
This is not the WW2 holocaust, so I am not sure what lessons we can learn from that.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
 |
Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | Skids wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | It may have escaped the attention of the Neo-Nazis but the refugee "suspect" has been realeased because the German police have worked out that he isn't the guy. Apparently, he just happened to be there. The very clever people doing the interrogation are said to have worked this out because the cabin of the truck was full of blood but he didn't have a speck on him.
But don't worry, I'm sure they'll detain another 24 year old Pakistani refugee very soon. Claude Rains is in charge of the investigation - he was just overheard directing his 2IC to "round up the usual suspects". |
It may have escaped your attention but ISIS have claimed responsibility. |
While they may well be the culprits (or in league with whoever carried out the act), it wouldn't be the first time that such a group claimed responsibility for something they didn't do. |
ISIS, or the similarly disordered thought of some like-minded clowns, is almost certainly responsible. What concerned me is not that people jumped to conclusions about jihadi involvement - it was, rather, the rush to criticise refugees and refugee programs. Even Merkel was making those noises. Whoever actually did this thing, it wasn't the Pakistani refugee they picked up following the "heroic" citizen's arrest of a guy who looked like he was the sort of bloke who would have done it, if only he'd had the chance and, eg, knew how to drive a truck. |
|
|
|
|
David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| stui magpie wrote: | You're fond of pointing to the number of muslims in the world compared to the other religions when talking about the number of terrorist acts.
How many terrorist acts have been committed globally by non=muslims in the last 2 decades? |
I don't see the connection between these two things. Yes, the percentage of the world Muslim population involved in terror activity in any way is infinitesimally small. Even if 100% of the world's terror attacks were committed by Muslims, that would still be true.
Seeing as you've asked, though, the answer is a lot:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close.html
| Quote: | Let’s start with Europe. Want to guess what percent of the terrorist attacks there were committed by Muslims over the past five years? Wrong. That is, unless you said less than 2 percent.
As Europol, the European Union’s law-enforcement agency, noted in its report released last year, the vast majority of terror attacks in Europe were perpetrated by separatist groups. For example, in 2013, there were 152 terror attacks in Europe. Only two of them were “religiously motivated,” while 84 were predicated upon ethno-nationalist or separatist beliefs.
We are talking about groups like France’s FLNC, which advocates an independent nation for the island of Corsica. In December 2013, FLNC terrorists carried out simultaneous rocket attacks against police stations in two French cities. And in Greece in late 2013, the left-wing Militant Popular Revolutionary Forces shot and killed two members of the right-wing political party Golden Dawn. While over in Italy, the anarchist group FAI engaged in numerous terror attacks including sending a bomb to a journalist. And the list goes on and on.
Have you heard of these incidents? Probably not. But if Muslims had committed them do you think you our media would’ve covered it? No need to answer, that’s a rhetorical question.
...
Have you heard about the Buddhist terrorists? Well, extremist Buddhists have killed many Muslim civilians in Burma, and just a few months ago in Sri Lanka, some went on a violent rampage burning down Muslim homes and businesses and slaughtering four Muslims.
Or what about the (dare I mention them) Jewish terrorists? Per the 2013 State Department’s report on terrorism, there were 399 acts of terror committed by Israeli settlers in what are known as “price tag” attacks. These Jewish terrorists attacked Palestinian civilians causing physical injuries to 93 of them and also vandalized scores of mosques and Christian churches.
Back in the United States, the percentage of terror attacks committed by Muslims is almost as miniscule as in Europe. An FBI study looking at terrorism committed on U.S. soil between 1980 and 2005 found that 94 percent of the terror attacks were committed by non-Muslims. In actuality, 42 percent of terror attacks were carried out by Latino-related groups, followed by 24 percent perpetrated by extreme left-wing actors. |
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Last edited by David on Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 05 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Pies4shaw wrote: | It may have escaped the attention of the Neo-Nazis but the refugee "suspect" has been released because the German police have worked out that he isn't the guy. Apparently, he just happened to be there. The very clever people doing the interrogation are said to have worked this out because the cabin of the truck was full of blood but he didn't have a speck on him.
But don't worry, I'm sure they'll detain another 24 year old Pakistani refugee very soon. Claude Rains is in charge of the investigation - he was just overheard directing his 2IC to "round up the usual suspects". |
Using the term 'Neo-Nazis' is an ad-hominem to deflect from the problem. Who in this case is a Neo-Nazi as you so elegantly put it?
How can Pakistanis be refugees? They're not experiencing any wars at the present time, and essentially some Pakistani nationals have exploited the Syrian refugee crisis to smuggle themselves into Europe and pose as refugees, when in reality they're more likely to be economic migrants, rather than actual refugees.
Merkel created this problem when she allowed open borders to flourish, which allowed people smugglers to exploit the refugee crisis where migrants were not only coming from Syria and Iraq, but also coming from other areas of the Middle East and North Africa.
_________________
| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 |
Last edited by Jezza on Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:43 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
|
Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 05 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Woods Of Ypres wrote: | | surely Merkel is finished now. |
Merkel still enjoys high level of support in Germany. It was revealed in November that 55% of Germans still support her.
| Quote: | | In all probability she'll win next year's autumn election. A poll for a Sunday newspaper revealed that 55% of Germans want her to remain in the role. And her conservatives are polling at around 33%. |
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38054216
_________________
| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
|
|
|
|
David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Jezza wrote: | How can Pakistanis be refugees? They're not experiencing any wars at the present time, and essentially some Pakistani nationals have exploited the Syrian refugee crisis to smuggle themselves into Europe and pose as refugees, when in reality they're more likely to be economic migrants, rather than actual refugees.
Merkel created this problem when she allowed open borders to flourish, which allowed people smugglers to exploit the refugee crisis where migrants were not only coming from Syria and Iraq, but also coming from other areas of the Middle East and North Africa. |
A bit of research wouldn't hurt, Jezza:
http://tribune.com.pk/story/565308/pakistans-refugee-population-1-6-million-unhcr-report/
http://www.dawn.com/news/1188585
| Quote: | | Pakistan hosts as many as 1.5 million refugees, which is the second largest number in the world after Turkey, which is home to 1.59 million Syrian refugees, according to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees |
Not all from Afghanistan, either:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/10/refugee-crisis-apart-from-syrians-who-else-is-travelling-to-europe
| Quote: | | More than 1.2 million Pakistanis have been displaced by insurgencies in north-west Pakistan, according to the UN, and by some estimates, more than 20,000 civilians have been killed. The well-documented attack on schoolgirl Malala Yousafzai and the December 2014 massacre of 100 schoolchildren in Peshawar are prominent examples of the threats ordinary people face from extremists. |
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Last edited by David on Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 05 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
|
| Post subject: | |
|
No, I'm talking about Pakistani nationals who flee Pakistan and head to Europe as economic migrants, rather than Pakistan accepting refugees from countries like Afghanistan.
The only major conflict Pakistan is experiencing is against India, but that's been going on for decades.
_________________
| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 |
Last edited by Jezza on Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Next question? What do you do in your spare time? |
|
|
|
|
David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
|
| Post subject: | |
|
^ See the last link added above. Whether or not some of the Pakistanis who have been claiming asylum in Germany are 'economic migrants', it's false to claim that there are no refugees of Pakistani background or that the earlier suspect in this case could not have been a genuine refugee.
You may have forgotten the internal conflict with the Taliban that's still raging in parts of Pakistan.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
|
|
|
|
Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Jezza wrote: | No, I'm talking about Pakistani nationals who flee Pakistan and head to Europe as economic migrants, rather than Pakistan accepting refugees from countries like Afghanistan.
The only major conflict Pakistan is experiencing is against India, but that's been going on for decades. |
If people from Pakistan are accepted into Europe as refugees, you can be quite confident that it's because they are refugees and not "economic migrants". The Convention is very specific. There will certainly be people who get in ahead of others because they "jump the queue" but they will still get in only because they are refugees. |
|
|
|
|
Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 05 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | ^ See the last link added above. Whether or not some of the Pakistanis who have been claiming asylum in Germany are 'economic migrants', it's false to claim that there are no refugees of Pakistani background or that the earlier suspect in this case could not have been a genuine refugee.
You may have forgotten the internal conflict with the Taliban that's still raging in parts of Pakistan. |
Thanks for that, I'll have a read of the current situation in more detail. I haven't really kept up to date with the situation in Pakistan in contrast to Syria, Libya, Iraq, Yemen and Afghanistan which have all had large warfare break out in recent years, especially in light of the Arab Spring.
I honestly thought the Taliban was predominantly a problem in Afghanistan, as opposed to Pakistan, which consists of a small offshoot of the main group and other designated terrorist organisations including ISIS that mainly operate as underground insurgents as opposed to engaging in full-blown warfare.
_________________
| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
|
|
|
|
swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Mugwump wrote: | ^ Agreed, Swoop - but what exactly do you want us to do ?
|
I think it's time to draw a line in the sand and find out which countries truly respect basic human rights, the rule of law, life and freedom.
The UN was a nice idea but like Nato is basically a toothless tiger when it comes to military intervention to stop genocide unfolding before our eyes.
While the United States and it's traditional allies are far from perfect there still a far lesser evil in comparison to the likes of Russia and China who consistently veto motions in the UN that could often at least help the cause of suffering civilians in war zones.
Personally I think it's time for an international army, a world police if you will made up willing partners who will act under the control of a body of representatives of those countries but ones ultimately acting independently and not answerable to there own governments of the day.
Importantly no country will have a right to veto any motions when the need for military intervention is obvious and required to stop the mass slaughter of civilians.
Of course any military needs funding and this would have to come from the respective countries GDP with a minimum amount set per year.
Existing military hardware would need to be utilised in the short to medium term.
The fighting force would be drawn from new recruits as well as those currently serving who would be given the chance to make a real difference in an international force.
To me it's time for all countries to put there cards on the table and decide what they stand for.
Freedom and safety or oppression and fear.
It's time for some brave political leaders to make a stand, countries who hold similar values to come together, good people of the world to unite and put a stop to the atrocities before they reach the point we are seeing now in Syria.
It's a pipe dream but I can dream. |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | Jezza wrote: | How can Pakistanis be refugees? They're not experiencing any wars at the present time, and essentially some Pakistani nationals have exploited the Syrian refugee crisis to smuggle themselves into Europe and pose as refugees, when in reality they're more likely to be economic migrants, rather than actual refugees.
Merkel created this problem when she allowed open borders to flourish, which allowed people smugglers to exploit the refugee crisis where migrants were not only coming from Syria and Iraq, but also coming from other areas of the Middle East and North Africa. |
A bit of research wouldn't hurt, Jezza:
http://tribune.com.pk/story/565308/pakistans-refugee-population-1-6-million-unhcr-report/
http://www.dawn.com/news/1188585
| Quote: | | Pakistan hosts as many as 1.5 million refugees, which is the second largest number in the world after Turkey, which is home to 1.59 million Syrian refugees, according to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees |
Not all from Afghanistan, either:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/10/refugee-crisis-apart-from-syrians-who-else-is-travelling-to-europe
| Quote: | | More than 1.2 million Pakistanis have been displaced by insurgencies in north-west Pakistan, according to the UN, and by some estimates, more than 20,000 civilians have been killed. The well-documented attack on schoolgirl Malala Yousafzai and the December 2014 massacre of 100 schoolchildren in Peshawar are prominent examples of the threats ordinary people face from extremists. |
|
Pakistan's North west has problems but most of Pakistan is quite safe. It seems strange to seek asylum in Germany in that context.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
^ David, firstly you might quote fatalities rather than number of attacks if you wish to make a persuasive case.
Secondly, what happens in (say) Myanmar has a very different context to what happens on the streets of London, New York. Paris. Berlin. Brussels Boston Madrid Ankara Nice etc (referencing only the more mass-scale nihilistic murders). you may not see a disturbing pattern, but then, false equivalence makes patterns very difficult to spot.
_________________
Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 05 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
