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| How many Syrian refugees should Australia take? |
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52% |
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| A few hundred |
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2% |
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| A few thousand |
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5% |
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| Over ten thousand |
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5% |
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| As many as possible |
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35% |
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| Total Votes : 40 |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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No David I do not base my opinion on the worst I base my opinion on the experience of all I have encountered in different situations and different lands and not just my experience but the experience of many many who have encountered them. You call it demonisation I call it the truth and fact! On what do you base your opinion that they are not and in fact may be heroes?
And I don't base my opinion of Kurdi on a few media reports - I am not that gullible - you don't think that much is known as fact by people who work in the field that is not accessible through mainstream media ??? And WTF - he is an opportunistic criminal who preyed on the desperation of others for financial gain - nothing remotely to do with the people trying to make a better life in Europe and he and his like make me angry because it is they who ultimately portray those taking the risks as opportunistic and greedy cause they " paid for it" - and people buy into this and rationalise it - these are greedy and selfish people - I understand the pressures and the frequently unpleasant repercussions for paying such debts but I also know that there are some who take advantage and are not at risk - they want a better life fair call but they are not at risk.
I have concerns about the mass migration of young males from a culture that does not have the same views about the rights and freedoms of females - as the sheer numbers in such a short time cannot possibly facilitate successful assimilation and I am a female so........
The photo of Alan Kurdi affected me no more than the many dead infants or children I have seen in media and in life because of starvation, neglect or human cruelty. There have been many since but we have " moved on" it seems!
You mention the DRC - last year we spent some time in the displaced persons camp in Kisoro Uganda - we took a heap of soccer balls and pencils for the kids ( and some Vegemite for my colleague) - it's not the best but it is safe and the kids get schooling and are safe to play and there are health care workers - no one would know cause they haven't a managed a photo to capture 24 hrs worth of Western outpouring of grief 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Haha, I'm in a restaurant in Temple Bar on the red |
Well that explains it then sure it does - must be on an Irish red be afraid people - very afraid - all people here and there  
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: |
When this man's son died, and the photo of his body was spread around the world, people everywhere from conservative politicians to ordinary people on social networks seem to have had a moment of clarity, in which all the rationalisations, avoidance, apathy and bullshit fell away for a brief moment in time. People saw a child, a little kid that could be your own or your neighbour's, dead because of forces beyond his control. Not dead because of a selfish parent, or Europe's failure to 'stop the boats', but dead like so many other children of his age, and teenagers, and babies, and grandparents, and men and women in the prime of their lives, because of the horror of warfare and mass displacement.
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I had a moment of clarity, but I drew from it a desire to stop the dreadful trade which led directly to that poor little boy's fate ; a trade which you seem keen to extenuate. I do not doubt your compassion, David, but I cannot accept the intellectual logic that by providing the goods which underpin the dreadful trade we are being really "compassionate". I'd say that feeling alone, without care for practical consequences, is not much above rotting sentiment. It may be sincerely felt, but there is a line of responsibility which connects that kind of compassion and that poor little kid.
If it were not for that fatal trade, he would be alive, fed, and schooled and with a hope for the future in a land that he will have to repair. We should do all that we can to facilitate that hope. The "compassionate" trade of people smuggling for profit took that from him. That was the moment of clarity.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Great post Mugwump,
Last night I read all the posts as the were posted, and I was going to post I get where your coming from David, and aplaud the way you seem to see everyone as basically good, until I woke up this morning to see the last paragraph of that fairy floss post. Really? No one cares? The out pouring of grief and empathy as you said was world wide, and then the true story came out about that poor kids old man, and yes some of the sentiments shifted. Because the photo was based on a lie.
You don't blame us for not feeling empathy, because it's hard from a distance. **** you! Don't get on your high horse and tell me how I feel. That kid broke my heart, not once but twice, firstly the very fact he died. His body on the shore for everyone to see. And then again, when I found out his dad is in bed with the scum of the earth, and that's why he died. I haven't seen anyone post on here anything but absolute heart break for that kid, and other genuine refugees. Just because it's pointed out that they are NOW safe, maybe in a place that needs a lot of repair, and yes good on them for trying to get somewhere better, but maybe pick a less risky route. Shame you can't see good in the people around you too.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Yeah but their redeeming feature is that they don't sell oil. |
Hook, line and sinker, Sir 
That's exactly my point; you actually do think a tertiary symptom that is going to exist if there's money to pay carries the same importance as a massive, persistent, underlying structural cause. And that's cringeworthy and really, really dumb for someone of your intelligence.
Which part of the massive chaos caused by the extractive industries, and the massive revenues and incentives the represent, from diamonds and gold, to oil and gas, don't you understand?
That's right, it's not the intrinsic structural economic incentives of those industries; locals just need ethics and management classes
Why do you think Russia is even bothering to fire up the Cold War again? The quality of the olives in northern Iraq? Where do you think this whole f^%$cked-in-the-head business gets its basic drive and incentive and funding from? Cloths and spices?
The mainstream verging-on-tabloid media has been making it easy even for the willfully ignorant to see the obvious. But, no; you want to cling to childish fantasies that this is about religion, or people smugglers, or queue jumpers.
It's bleeding cringeworthy for a sharp-minded, often cynical person like yourself to fall for this shite.
At every single scale you bother to look, it's about these massive and massively corrupt and democracy-destroying industries. Oil and gas, and sometimes other minerals elsewhere.
Here's a very basic article I want to post - not so you make some childish comment like, "So, now you think it's all about gas", but because the geo-economics are freaking obvious to anyone with half a brain. The specifics are confusing, but the incentives are broadly clear.
Don't make the same dumb errors again and again; learn from Iraq, FFS.
Remember Iraq? That was about the evils of Saddam Hussein and his brothers Or weapons of mass destruction Or freeing the Kurds
In actual fact, the evils of Saddam were indeed far more central to that conflict than the scrappy, marginal evils of people smugglers are to this conflict.
People smugglers are the sideshow clowns of evil; dirty hobos and grimy Fagans themselves born into this shite, and every bit as likely to take a bullet and have their lives cut short as their grim cargo.
| A simple article in news.com.au of all very basic sources *a year ago* wrote: |
Is the fight over a gas pipeline fuelling the worlds bloodiest conflict?
THE Syrian war often seems like a big confusing mess but one factor that is not often mentioned could be the key to unlocking the conflict.
Some experts have pointed out that many of the key players have one thing in common: a billion-dollar gas pipeline.
Factor in this detail and suddenly the war begins to make more sense, heres how it works:
ITS THE GAS, STUPID
Many have questioned why Russia became involved in the Syrian war but often overlook the fight over natural gas.
As Harvard Professor Mitchell A Orenstein and George Romer wrote last month inForeign Affairs, Russia currently supplies Europe with a quarter of the gas it uses for heating, cooking, fuel and other activities.
In fact 80 per cent of the gas that Russian state-controlled company Gazprom produces is sold to Europe, so maintaining this crucial market is very important.
But Europe doesnt like being so reliant on Russia for fuel and has been trying to reduce its dependence. Its a move that is supported by the United States as it would weaken Russian influence over Europe.
This has not gone down well with Russia, which uses its power over gas as political leverage and has a history of cutting off supply to countries during conflicts. It has even gone to war in Georgia and Ukraine to disrupt plans to export gas from other parts of the Middle East.
As David Dalton, the editor of the Economist Intelligence Unit, told The New York Times: Russia has always used gas as an instrument of influence. The more you owe Gazprom, the more they think they can turn the screws.
Much of Russias power comes from established pipelines used to transport gas to Europe cheaply. But other countries are now trying to get around Russia and provide new sources of gas to Europe.
Last year US President Barack Obama spoke openly about the need for Europe to reduce its reliance on Russian gas following the conflict in Ukraine.
The US also wants to use its own natural gas supply, recently developed through fracking, to undercut Russian supply. But it will be years before the US will be in a position to ship this overseas.
The US is not the only country trying to outmanoeuvre Russia, and this is where the role of Syria becomes more important.
TWO NEW PIPELINES
Before the civil war, two competing pipelines put forward by Qatar and Iran aimed to transport gas to Europe through Syria.
Qatars plans were first put forward in 2009 and involved building a pipeline from the Persian Gulf via Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Turkey.
The gas field located 3000 metres below the floor of the Persian Gulf is the largest natural gas field in the world. Qatar owns about two-thirds of the resource but cant capitalise on it fully because it relies on tankers to deliver it to other countries and this makes its gas more expensive than Russias.
It was hoped the pipeline would provide cheaper access to Europe but Syrian President Bashar al Assad refused to give permission for the pipeline to go through his territory. Some believe Russia pressured him to reject the pipeline to safeguard its own business.
Image:
http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/094d5929f2a7da0ec47855659dcc8df8
The proposed gas pipeline from Qatar via Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Turkey to Europe.
In the meantime Iran, which owns the other smaller, share of the Persian Gulf gas field, decided to lodge its own rival plan for a $10 billion pipeline to Europe via Iraq and Syria and then under the Mediterranean Sea.
Image:
http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/335809bc5a4500918ff797c8a540c039
Pipeline from Iran via Iraq and Syria to Europe.
These plans apparently had Russias blessing, possibly because it could exert more influence over Iran, which, unlike Qatar, did not host a US air base.
Assad signed off on the Iran plan in 2012 and it was due to be completed in 2016 but it was ultimately delayed because of the Arab Spring and the civil war.
Many countries supporting or opposing the war against Assad have links to these pipeline plans.
Failed pipeline bidder Qatar is believed to have funded anti-Assad rebel groups by $3 billion between 2011 and 2013. Saudi Arabia has also been accused of funding the terrorist group.
In contrast Orenstein and Romer noted the successful pipeline bidder, Iran, was believed to be helping Assad by running the Syrian army, supplying it with weapons and even troops.
Major Rob Taylor, an instructor at the US Armys Command and General Staff College wrote in the Armed Forces Journal last year that the rival pipelines could be influencing the conflict in Syria.
Viewed through a geopolitical and economic lens, the conflict in Syria is not a civil war, but the result of larger international players positioning themselves on the geopolitical chessboard in preparation for the opening of the pipeline, he noted.
Just as the 2003 Iraq War has been linked to oil in the Persian Gulf, Syria may turn out to be all about gas.
WHY DOES TURKEY CARE?
One of the countries that has a lot to gain from getting rid of Assad is Turkey.
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has been vocal in calling for the Syrian President to step down and has also been accused of helping Islamic State, something it has rejected.
While Turkey could have other reasons for supporting the rebels in Syria, such as Assads support for the Kurds, Harvard University Professor Orenstein told news.com.au that gas would definitely be one reason it was opposing the regime.
Turkey, which stands at the crossroads of Asia and Europe, is an aspiring member of the European Union, and some consider it to be the best option for facilitating the movement of gas supplies from the Middle East to Europe.
As a hub, Turkey would benefit from transit fees and other energy-generated revenues.
It could also insure, with US support, that all gas suppliers in the Middle East could freely export their product.
Qatars plans put Turkey at the centre of its plan.
As one of the countries relying on Russia for gas, freeing it from this dependence would be an added bonus.
But none of this can be realised if the pipeline bypasses Turkey and if Assad becomes instrumental in approving an alternative that does not involve it.
Now that Russia is stepping in to help the Assad regime in Syria possibly to protect its own dominance in the gas market Turkey is facing a formidable barrier to its aspirations.
When Turkey downed a Russian plane earlier this month, some speculated it may want to weaken any potential co-operation between Russia and the US which could see Assad continue his leadership.
Russias motives for its air strikes have also been questioned. CNN military analyst Cedric Leighton, a retired air force colonel, noting that its bombing of Islamic State extremists seemed to have hit Turkmen in northern Syria, who had strong ties to the Turkish government.
Prof Orenstein said the competition over natural gas could ultimately prevent co-operation between the two world powers on fighting Islamic State.
I doubt there is much basis for US-Russia co-operation due to opposite interests in gas issues and Iran, he told news.com.au
But despite fears that the world is facing a new Cold War, Prof Orenstein believes its more of a free for all, with the fight over natural gas acting as just another fuel. |
http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/is-the-fight-over-a-gas-pipeline-fuelling-the-worlds-bloodiest-conflict/news-story/74efcba9554c10bd35e280b63a9afb74
Here's a mix of serious and tabloid reading for you - not because I agree with it all, but because only a blind fool focuses on the superficial - religion, evil people smugglers, queue jumpers, etc., - and won't touch the obvious underlying causes when we can wind this up with much greater haste through technological transition.
http://english.dohainstitute.org/file/get/444f4c4c-47d3-4d9b-b550-7c544b3e397c.pdf
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15387216.2014.942339?journalCode=rege20
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/pub1190.pdf
https://www.cepci.hei.ulaval.ca/sites/cepci.hei.ulaval.ca/files/oge_geopolitics_and_revenue_transparency.pdf
http://www.russia-direct.org/opinion/russia-and-new-geopolitics-oil
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2015/01/oil-price-and-russian-politics
http://www.wallstreetdaily.com/2015/12/29/russia-turkey-oil-market/
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/02/iran-political-play-oil-giants-160212173222115.html
http://www.upg-bulletin-se.ro/archive/2015-3/2.Mohsen.pdf
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-isis-oil-trade-from-the-ground-up
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-in-syria-us-air-strikes-destroys-283-oil-tankers-used-for-smuggling-to-fund-terror-group-a6746211.html
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/03/the-hidden-consequences-of-low-oil-prices/389156/
http://atimes.com/2015/10/cheap-oil-puts-the-house-of-saud-at-risk/
http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/31/news/economy/oil-price-saudi-arabia/
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/22531-putins-threat-to-saudi-arabia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/video-shows-russian-air-strike-explode-isis-oil-refinery-a6740256.html
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/testimonies/CT400/CT448/RAND_CT448.pdf
http://oaji.net/articles/2015/2047-1437243233.pdf
http://www.mintpressnews.com/MyMPN/saudi-arabia-bringing-price-oil/
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/01/the-saudis-oily-game-is-an-ambitious-one-heres-how-to-understand-it/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/oilprices/11768136/Saudi-Arabia-may-go-broke-before-the-US-oil-industry-buckles.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/how-isis-uses-oil-to-fuel-its-jihad-1.2392006
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/28/iran-saudi-arabia-middle-east-stability-peace
http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2015/nov/25/saudi-arabia-white-daesh-is-the-father-of-isis-says-writer
http://www.dw.com/en/isis-oil-and-war/a-17760035
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Last edited by pietillidie on Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:26 am; edited 2 times in total |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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your missus takes long toilet breaks
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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 Do you have any idea what I am talking about? |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Morrigu wrote: | | On what do you base your opinion that they are not and in fact may be heroes? |
I take it you didn't read the article I posted about people smugglers who helped Jews escape from Nazi-occupied Europe? If you can accept that those people were "not scumbags" and perhaps even "heroes" but can't accept that anyone getting people out of the Middle East through extra-legal means is anything but the scum of the earth then you have to explain what the fundamental difference is between those two categories of people. Two categories of people who (at least in some cases) took money for their services, sent people on dangerous journeys and helped them escape from situations where there lives may have been at risk.
| Morrigu wrote: | | I have concerns about the mass migration of young males from a culture that does not have the same views about the rights and freedoms of females - as the sheer numbers in such a short time cannot possibly facilitate successful assimilation and I am a female so........ |
Fair enough, but that's not what we're discussing here. Population demographics in Europe are not the concern of asylum seekers or people smugglers. I understand that these concerns may colour your views of what people smugglers do, but that has nothing to do with whether or not they should be treated with contempt as human beings.
| Morrigu wrote: | | You mention the DRC - last year we spent some time in the displaced persons camp in Kisoro Uganda - we took a heap of soccer balls and pencils for the kids ( and some Vegemite for my colleague) - it's not the best but it is safe and the kids get schooling and are safe to play and there are health care workers - no one would know cause they haven't a managed a photo to capture 24 hrs worth of Western outpouring of grief |
I have no doubt that some camps are better than others, but I dare say the conditions where you visited were better than in some of the settlements around Syria.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-crisis-refugees-idUSBRE8BF03520121216
| Quote: | One-year-old Ali Ghazawi, born with a heart defect, faced a battle for survival even before his family fled Syria's civil war. It was a struggle he lost two weeks ago in the bitter winter cold of a tented refugee camp in north Jordan.
Ali died two days after undergoing a heart operation in Zaatari camp, which houses at least 32,000 refugees who escaped fierce bombardment in Syria's rebellious southern province of Deraa, cradle of the uprising against President Bashar al-Assad.
"I covered my son with two blankets, but he was not warming up, and he turned blue before he passed away in my hands," said his sobbing 22-year-old mother, alone with a three-year-old daughter after she left her husband in Deraa and crossed the border in November.
Ali was the fourth baby to die in three weeks in the windswept camp. United Nations aid workers say none of the deaths were the direct result of conditions in Zaatari, yet they highlight the challenge facing relief agencies scrambling to provide basic shelter for half a million refugees in the region.
"These deaths are a result of cumulative factors, some related to shortage in needs and natural causes. But on top of that, the reality that conditions are harsh cannot be ignored," said Saba Mobaslat, program director at Save the Children.
Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey each host more than 130,000 registered refugees, and relief workers predict the numbers will only increase as violence escalates around the capital Damascus.
Mirroring Syria's youthful population, almost 65 percent of Jordan's camp residents are newborns and young children.
"Every night we are getting children as young as four days old, six days old, one week, two weeks old, and it's a real struggle to try to make sure that everyone survives," said Andrew Harper, Jordan head of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR).
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FROM CRISIS TO DISASTER?
Harper said UNHCR was working to prevent "this humanitarian crisis becoming a major disaster". But he said that while aid teams were racing to improve conditions at Zaatari, there were 100,000 other registered refugees living outside the camp and probably another 100,000 unregistered, whose living conditions were not improving.
In Lebanon, too, host to 154,000 refugees, many face a bleak winter, and aid workers expect their numbers to more than double by the middle of next year.
In the Bekaa Valley town of Bar Elias, a woman from the northern Syria province of Idlib says her home for the last year has been a wooden shack with only plastic sheeting to protect from the rain. Plastic bags are stuffed into the roof as extra insurance against leaks. "There is no water, no electricity, no school for my kids," she said in a croaky voice.
"My husband is sick. The situation is very bad." |
There's also stuff like this, which I found after googling for thirty seconds:
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/01/syria-refugees-children-death-bab-al-salameh-camp.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/06/deaths-syrian-refugee-tents-catch-fire-lebanon-150601132331334.html
Would you take the 1% chance of dying at sea if it meant escaping conditions like this? I suspect I would. And I wouldn't necessarily think badly of someone who gave me the means of getting out of there, even if they took a decent payment for it.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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In the context of this discussion, I urge everyone to read this for an alternative perspective, if nothing else:
http://www.refugeeaction.org.au/?page_id=1809
| Quote: | There is no evidence that international criminal networks are organising asylum boats to Australia. Most often travel arrangements are made by local or refugee communities, motivated by a mix of profit and altruism. Indeed, several UNHCR-registered refugees have served sentences in Australian jails for people smuggling offences.
One such UNHCR Iraqi-Iranian refugee, Hadi Ahmadi, had twice attempted to get to Australia himself. In 2010 he was convicted for assisting 911 asylum seekers to come to Australia yet 886 of them were found to be refugees.
Ten of 16 people convicted for people smuggling between 2001 and 2006 were indeed refugees themselves.
The government tries to blame a people smugglers business model as if it was people smuggling that was driving asylum seekers to seek protection in Australia, talking of a sophisticated million-dollar product marketed by smugglers. But the fact is unauthorised travel to Australia is driven by the needs of people fleeing persecution in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka. Individuals such as Hadi Ahmadi and Ali Al Jenabi provide a humanitarian service to asylum seekers desperately needing protection but who are denied the possibility of official entry to Australia. |
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Do you get to travel often? But not all of them? |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Piss poor references, in both linked articles the first priority was to get them out of danger, exactly the same as the people who got the Jews out of germany.
I don't understand why it's not crystal clear that just referring to people by the same name doesn't make them the same.
The refugees who try to hop a boat in Indonesia have already escaped persecution FFS, those smugglers are mercenary scum.
The people Morrigu refers to are the ones who go through the camps to get people who've already escaped persecution, again, and are now paying to be smuggled into a new host country when the UN already has processes in place to deal with it.
In both instances these are low life profiteering scum preying on weak desperate people who've escaped death or persecution.
Apples and fkn oranges and I don't know why I'm wasting my time repeating myself because David's mind is fixed on this stupid comparison.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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