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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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shame they didn't this time. Good people died too.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| think positive wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: |
And what perchance would you see resulting from that inquiry? |
Your so polite, my immediate thought was , oh **** off. Seriously? You think that's necessary? You don't think the cops don't have enough PTS from the whole thing? Do you need a name on the bullet and an apology? FMFD |
Some people were questioning the wisdom of the police response in the aftermath. I think a few of us here wondered out loud if they should have held out longer/tried more negotiation tactics, and whether—given that they were dealing with a lone gunman—flooding the area with police officers exacerbated the situation.
All very well to take potshots from afar, I know, but if these reports are true then the fact that one of the two hostages who died was killed by a police bullet should be sufficient reason for a review of procedure. Not so someone can be named and shamed—that's not my angle here at all—but so things can be done better if (god forbid) a situation like this happens again.
Surely you'll agree that, when the stakes are high, there's no harm in at least asking questions.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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Real life ain't like the movies I'm afraid.
Most likely a ricochet that stuck here from what I read.
Just plain bad luck.
P.S-It has been well reported that Mad Manis had stopped communicating with negotiators for a number of hours in the lead up to the police storming in.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Absolutely no harm in asking questions. They could ask why they took so long to go in as well.
No0ne of us ( I assume) have experience in these kind of hostage situations, so any commentary basically has the same validity as a bunch of athletic no hopers commenting on how professional athletes should play their game.
If one person died as a result of a Police bullet ricochet, with due respect you'd take that because 20 people got saved. I think I read that 4 people died in the French Situation as a result of Police fire. Our boys seem to be doing pretty good comparatively.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Bruce Gonsalves
Joined: 05 Jul 2012
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| stui magpie wrote: | Absolutely no harm in asking questions. They could ask why they took so long to go in as well.
No0ne of us ( I assume) have experience in these kind of hostage situations, so any commentary basically has the same validity as a bunch of athletic no hopers commenting on how professional athletes should play their game.
If one person died as a result of a Police bullet ricochet, with due respect you'd take that because 20 people got saved. I think I read that 4 people died in the French Situation as a result of Police fire. Our boys seem to be doing pretty good comparatively. |
Not sure where you read that the gendarme killed the four hostages in France. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Bruce Gonsalves wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Absolutely no harm in asking questions. They could ask why they took so long to go in as well.
No0ne of us ( I assume) have experience in these kind of hostage situations, so any commentary basically has the same validity as a bunch of athletic no hopers commenting on how professional athletes should play their game.
If one person died as a result of a Police bullet ricochet, with due respect you'd take that because 20 people got saved. I think I read that 4 people died in the French Situation as a result of Police fire. Our boys seem to be doing pretty good comparatively. |
Not sure where you read that the gendarme killed the four hostages in France. |
Neither am I. If it's wrong I'll happily withdraw the remark.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: |
And what perchance would you see resulting from that inquiry? |
Your so polite, my immediate thought was , oh **** off. Seriously? You think that's necessary? You don't think the cops don't have enough PTS from the whole thing? Do you need a name on the bullet and an apology? FMFD |
Some people were questioning the wisdom of the police response in the aftermath. I think a few of us here wondered out loud if they should have held out longer/tried more negotiation tactics, and whether—given that they were dealing with a lone gunman—flooding the area with police officers exacerbated the situation.
All very well to take potshots from afar, I know, but if these reports are true then the fact that one of the two hostages who died was killed by a police bullet should be sufficient reason for a review of procedure. Not so someone can be named and shamed—that's not my angle here at all—but so things can be done better if (god forbid) a situation like this happens again.
Surely you'll agree that, when the stakes are high, there's no harm in at least asking questions. |
I still resent your asking for it because you so often bag the cops, and yet don't question the criminals, it ain't their fault after all, no free will and all that.
Did they do the right thing?
No, for mine they should have put a bull it through his head the first chance they got that red dot on him. But then did he have a bomb? Or were there others waiting in the wings?
But questioning the cops actions BECAUSE a hostage got caught in friendly fire when this dick has shot someone already? Absolutely not. They have suffered enough
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Last edited by think positive on Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| stui magpie wrote: | | No0ne of us ( I assume) have experience in these kind of hostage situations, so any commentary basically has the same validity as a bunch of athletic no hopers commenting on how professional athletes should play their game. |
Yep. Even less than that, actually. At least most athletic no-hopers have played the game at some (low) level, or played some other game vaguely similar, or at very least watched a few games at some time in the past. Where here, none of us have ever even "watched the game", so to speak, let alone played it at any level.
An event like this, you always do an after-action study no matter what the result. What happened? What decisions were made? What went right? What went wrong? In hindsight, what can we do to improve our response to some other similar event in the future? What could we have done to prevent it in the first place? These are all valid questions and they should always be revisited whenever something like this happens (and at other times as well). This has nothing to do with the result, you ask these questions and seek to improve anything you can improve regardless of the result. Maybe everything went perfectly and no-one got hurt, maybe it was a complete chaotic disaster. Doesn't matter: you ask the questions and you try to learn everything you can from them.
One little PS: hostage situations come down to, essentially, a two-way choice. Do we talk our way through them or do we shoot our way through them? Neither answer is right all of the time, it's a matter for judgment depending on the circumstances, and the circumstances can change from moment to moment. Either way, the thing can go badly wrong. You just don't know what the outcome will be in advance, and you have to make the best call you can. There is no guarantee of a perfect result: you make your choice and you get what you get. Tough job!
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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OEP 
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth
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Tragic outcome regarding the death of the hostages. No win situation for the Police, as these types of incidents are, when they wait some people ask why are they waiting and when they make the difficult decision to force entry and resolve the standoff some people ask why did they wait so long...not surprisingly often it's the same people ask both questions.
Hopefully the family, loved ones and friends of the deceased are at some point able to find some peace with their tragic loss.
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A Collingwood supporter since the egg was inseminated. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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OEP
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth
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I agree escaping from an armed gunman take an element of fear, obviously, but also the guts to make that move in the first place. It'd be a lot simpler to sit/stand there and hope you'll be Ok but it takes courage to move a risk injury or death to try and ensure your safety. In saying that I don't believe it's in the spirit of the Bravery Award to give those that escaped one, nor do I believe the Police involved warrant them either and I don't like the idea of our wanker PM using this tragedy to hand out Bravery Awards en mass just to get some good press.
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A Collingwood supporter since the egg was inseminated. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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If you can hand out father of the year and Australian of the year awards to sportsman willy nilliy, then give the cops bravery awards. Every situation is different, but it sounds as if certainly a few of the hostages at least did some mighty brave stuff
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I am not sure about your hypothesis. How old are you? A contest to see if a computer can pass as a human. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| OEP wrote: |
I agree escaping from an armed gunman take an element of fear, obviously, but also the guts to make that move in the first place. It'd be a lot simpler to sit/stand there and hope you'll be Ok but it takes courage to move a risk injury or death to try and ensure your safety. In saying that I don't believe it's in the spirit of the Bravery Award to give those that escaped one, nor do I believe the Police involved warrant them either and I don't like the idea of our wanker PM using this tragedy to hand out Bravery Awards en mass just to get some good press. |
That's a good point, I have to admit. To some extent, this is just Abbott milking the tragedy for all it's worth.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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OEP
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth
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| think positive wrote: | | If you can hand out father of the year and Australian of the year awards to sportsman willy nilliy, then give the cops bravery awards. Every situation is different, but it sounds as if certainly a few of the hostages at least did some mighty brave stuff |
Just because one award has become political doesn't mean we should allow another award to go down the same path. The police were doing their job and nothing I've heard to date would indicate any of them went above and beyond the call of their duty. I agree regarding the hostages and believe all of them were courageous in their own way, I'm simply saying I don't believed those that escaped warrant Bravery Awards.
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A Collingwood supporter since the egg was inseminated. |
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