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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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WPT, of all the world's problems and of Australia's problems too, the single largest by far is unrestrained population growth. This is the central problem which is responsible for, or at least or partly responsible for, nearly all of the others. Whether you are talking environmental disaster after environmental catastrophe, or the impossibility of feeding the starving millions, or the steady and constant erosion of quality of life in countries both rich and poor, or the near-certainty of catastrophic climate change, or the depletion of natural resources, or the loss of civil rights and need for ever-greater policing and surveillance, or the massive cost of more and more and more infrastructure which nevertheless cannot keep up even the standards of service we had 50 years ago (caught a train lately? been stuck in traffic this week?), or any of a host of other things, out-of-control population growth is at the root of it. The last thing this country needs is even more people.
It's not a NIMBY argument, WPT. It's a fairness argument and a probity argument. Why the hell should responsible, decent people who have done the right thing and had no children or at most two be taxed more to provide benefits to the irresponsible, selfish and incontinent drones? Not one f_king penny mate. We can't stop the bastards over-breeding, much as that would be desirable and sensible, but at least we can require that they pay for their own damn actions.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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I'm not advocating this, however it's interesting to see how other countries do things:
"France: significant support for women and high monetary benefits
France has long had an extensive policy in favour of families. It provides a wide range of subsidised childcare services and a generous and varied allowances system, especially for large families. This is the principal behind the resources intended to help parents find a better balance between work and family life. This series of measures has worked well: France is amongst the European Union member states with the highest fertility and employment rates of women with children"....
http://europa.eu/epic/countries/france/index_en.htm
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Dud as soon as someone starts quoting anything from Europe i zone out. No interest in any of them.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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^ the problem with that is it assumes one cannot learn anything from other places & assumes a level of knowingness than is inherently insular.
That does not mean all things / many things / somethings from Europe (or wherever) are inherently good but why choose to limit oneself by choosing not not to see other ways of doing things - even to reject those things?
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | 1. What is the right/appropriate/correct amount of parental leave / maternity leave in the main that we as a society in Australia should say is right for women to have post birth?
None. Their own baby, their own choice. They can pay for it with their own money.
2. What then is the amount at which such leave ought to be paid?
Zero. See (1)
3. What are our values regarding supporting women who have children to have time to bond & raise their babies in say the first year of life fundamental I would have thought to stability for the future?
Fully support that. People who choose to have babies should indeed take the time and trouble to do it as well as possible. Most of them don't. Taking money away from responsible, child-free citizens in order to give it to people breeding huge families neither they nor the nation can afford is not good policy any way you slice it. If you want to talk about restricting payments to the first and possibly second child, I'll listen. Otherwise, they can pay for it all themselves. And hand back the massive tax breaks they get which no-one else gets.
4. What is the role of the state towards affordable childcare (an oxymoron these days surely)?
Undecided. I'm open to argument on that one.
5. What then is the role of the state in the provision of things like sufficient mothercraft nurses etc that used be around / mother & infant centres or whatever it is these days?
Very important. We need to distinguish here between things which encourage people to breed and shift the costs* of their lifestyle choices onto the rest of the nation on the one hand, as opposed to things which nurture the resulting children and help them grow into healthy, happy, productive citizens. I agree that it is difficult to distinguish between these two conflicting requirements, and also that no possible answer can fully satisfy both of them. Nevertheless, a good sensible starting point is that we (the nation) pay for health and education and try to make it as good as we can, but you (the citizen) defray the other costs of your own lifestyle choice and do not expect other citizens to pay you for your own selfish choices.
* Note that these costs are not just financial. Indeed the straight financial cost of extra babies to the nation is the smallest component of the overall cost, which is financial (large), economic (serious), environmental (huge) and future quality-of-life related (major). |
Your argument that the state should pay for education is not consistent with the NIMBY type of argument you seem to be running (the glorious contribution made by the who are without children). I hear lots of people who say why should I pay taxes for things I don't use or don't directly benefit me (the variation here is cloaked in "motherhood" terms (dare I say) of sustainability & the environment).
To be clear Mrs WPT did not have any maternity leave while I had some very limited paternity leave with both our children. We also wanted 1 parent at home for the first few years (& I was hopeless at breastfeeding)
However, it cost us a fortune relatively speaking (especially when interest rates were at 14% & we went from 2 incomes to 1). |
Same here, and worth every cent.
FWIW I was hopeless at breastfeeding too!
Babies need their mum, or dad, not some stranger at a child care place. Yes I'm old fashioned, I don't care. I would not have missed a second of it for anything.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Tannin wrote: | WPT, of all the world's problems and of Australia's problems too, the single largest by far is unrestrained population growth. This is the central problem which is responsible for, or at least or partly responsible for, nearly all of the others. Whether you are talking environmental disaster after environmental catastrophe, or the impossibility of feeding the starving millions, or the steady and constant erosion of quality of life in countries both rich and poor, or the near-certainty of catastrophic climate change, or the depletion of natural resources, or the loss of civil rights and need for ever-greater policing and surveillance, or the massive cost of more and more and more infrastructure which nevertheless cannot keep up even the standards of service we had 50 years ago (caught a train lately? been stuck in traffic this week?), or any of a host of other things, out-of-control population growth is at the root of it. The last thing this country needs is even more people.
It's not a NIMBY argument, WPT. It's a fairness argument and a probity argument. Why the hell should responsible, decent people who have done the right thing and had no children or at most two be taxed more to provide benefits to the irresponsible, selfish and incontinent drones? Not one f_king penny mate. We can't stop the bastards over-breeding, much as that would be desirable and sensible, but at least we can require that they pay for their own damn actions. |
Gees a little harsh! But I do agree, don't have kids til you can afford them, and don't have more than you can afford.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| think positive wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | 1. What is the right/appropriate/correct amount of parental leave / maternity leave in the main that we as a society in Australia should say is right for women to have post birth?
None. Their own baby, their own choice. They can pay for it with their own money.
2. What then is the amount at which such leave ought to be paid?
Zero. See (1)
3. What are our values regarding supporting women who have children to have time to bond & raise their babies in say the first year of life fundamental I would have thought to stability for the future?
Fully support that. People who choose to have babies should indeed take the time and trouble to do it as well as possible. Most of them don't. Taking money away from responsible, child-free citizens in order to give it to people breeding huge families neither they nor the nation can afford is not good policy any way you slice it. If you want to talk about restricting payments to the first and possibly second child, I'll listen. Otherwise, they can pay for it all themselves. And hand back the massive tax breaks they get which no-one else gets.
4. What is the role of the state towards affordable childcare (an oxymoron these days surely)?
Undecided. I'm open to argument on that one.
5. What then is the role of the state in the provision of things like sufficient mothercraft nurses etc that used be around / mother & infant centres or whatever it is these days?
Very important. We need to distinguish here between things which encourage people to breed and shift the costs* of their lifestyle choices onto the rest of the nation on the one hand, as opposed to things which nurture the resulting children and help them grow into healthy, happy, productive citizens. I agree that it is difficult to distinguish between these two conflicting requirements, and also that no possible answer can fully satisfy both of them. Nevertheless, a good sensible starting point is that we (the nation) pay for health and education and try to make it as good as we can, but you (the citizen) defray the other costs of your own lifestyle choice and do not expect other citizens to pay you for your own selfish choices.
* Note that these costs are not just financial. Indeed the straight financial cost of extra babies to the nation is the smallest component of the overall cost, which is financial (large), economic (serious), environmental (huge) and future quality-of-life related (major). |
Your argument that the state should pay for education is not consistent with the NIMBY type of argument you seem to be running (the glorious contribution made by the who are without children). I hear lots of people who say why should I pay taxes for things I don't use or don't directly benefit me (the variation here is cloaked in "motherhood" terms (dare I say) of sustainability & the environment).
To be clear Mrs WPT did not have any maternity leave while I had some very limited paternity leave with both our children. We also wanted 1 parent at home for the first few years (& I was hopeless at breastfeeding)
However, it cost us a fortune relatively speaking (especially when interest rates were at 14% & we went from 2 incomes to 1). |
Same here, and worth every cent.
FWIW I was hopeless at breastfeeding too!
Babies need their mum, or dad, not some stranger at a child care place. Yes I'm old fashioned, I don't care. I would not have missed a second of it for anything. |
Mrs WPT was lucky enough to be able to breastfeed with both girls - but we lived on one income for 5-6 yrs while paying a mortgage - I had to get promotions rapidly - & was lucky enough to be in a postion to manage that - it did entail shifting to NE Victoria for 6 years.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Post subject: | |
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| watt price tully wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | 1. What is the right/appropriate/correct amount of parental leave / maternity leave in the main that we as a society in Australia should say is right for women to have post birth?
None. Their own baby, their own choice. They can pay for it with their own money.
2. What then is the amount at which such leave ought to be paid?
Zero. See (1)
3. What are our values regarding supporting women who have children to have time to bond & raise their babies in say the first year of life fundamental I would have thought to stability for the future?
Fully support that. People who choose to have babies should indeed take the time and trouble to do it as well as possible. Most of them don't. Taking money away from responsible, child-free citizens in order to give it to people breeding huge families neither they nor the nation can afford is not good policy any way you slice it. If you want to talk about restricting payments to the first and possibly second child, I'll listen. Otherwise, they can pay for it all themselves. And hand back the massive tax breaks they get which no-one else gets.
4. What is the role of the state towards affordable childcare (an oxymoron these days surely)?
Undecided. I'm open to argument on that one.
5. What then is the role of the state in the provision of things like sufficient mothercraft nurses etc that used be around / mother & infant centres or whatever it is these days?
Very important. We need to distinguish here between things which encourage people to breed and shift the costs* of their lifestyle choices onto the rest of the nation on the one hand, as opposed to things which nurture the resulting children and help them grow into healthy, happy, productive citizens. I agree that it is difficult to distinguish between these two conflicting requirements, and also that no possible answer can fully satisfy both of them. Nevertheless, a good sensible starting point is that we (the nation) pay for health and education and try to make it as good as we can, but you (the citizen) defray the other costs of your own lifestyle choice and do not expect other citizens to pay you for your own selfish choices.
* Note that these costs are not just financial. Indeed the straight financial cost of extra babies to the nation is the smallest component of the overall cost, which is financial (large), economic (serious), environmental (huge) and future quality-of-life related (major). |
Your argument that the state should pay for education is not consistent with the NIMBY type of argument you seem to be running (the glorious contribution made by the who are without children). I hear lots of people who say why should I pay taxes for things I don't use or don't directly benefit me (the variation here is cloaked in "motherhood" terms (dare I say) of sustainability & the environment).
To be clear Mrs WPT did not have any maternity leave while I had some very limited paternity leave with both our children. We also wanted 1 parent at home for the first few years (& I was hopeless at breastfeeding)
However, it cost us a fortune relatively speaking (especially when interest rates were at 14% & we went from 2 incomes to 1). |
Same here, and worth every cent.
FWIW I was hopeless at breastfeeding too!
Babies need their mum, or dad, not some stranger at a child care place. Yes I'm old fashioned, I don't care. I would not have missed a second of it for anything. |
Mrs WPT was lucky enough to be able to breastfeed with both girls - but we lived on one income for 5-6 yrs while paying a mortgage - I had to get promotions rapidly - & was lucky enough to be in a postion to manage that - it did entail shifting to NE Victoria for 6 years. |
I breast fed but had to supliment, my boobs didn't grow at all! Yeah we lived on one income for the first 5 years, then I started a kids clothes party plan business so I could work while hubby was home. It was just the right time and a roaring success! I did it for about 7 years, and three years in started a baby capsule hire service too! It meant I never missed a school thing, or anything else. Hubby worked 7 days for years. We paid off our house, and got a couple of rentals, we had second hand furniture, and third hand cars, and surfers holidays! And yes it was so worth it!
That's half the problem, so many young things want it all, a big brand new house, and new cars, overseas holidays, all while the kids are young.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| think positive wrote: | | That's half the problem, so many young things want it all, a big brand new house, and new cars, overseas holidays, all while the kids are young. |
And ain't dat the troof.
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Tannin wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | That's half the problem, so many young things want it all, a big brand new house, and new cars, overseas holidays, all while the kids are young. |
And ain't dat the troof. |
Ok I put a tad more than my entitlement of scotch in my can of coke when I got home, you actually r agreeing with me yeah nah?
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Sorry. Won't happen again.
PS: you are back in your rightful position, which is to say on top of Swoop. (Much good may it do you.) (Or him!)
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Tannin wrote: | Sorry. Won't happen again.
PS: you are back in your rightful position, which is to say on top of Swoop. (Much good may it do you.) (Or him!) |
Ta!!!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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