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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I don't see a need to equalise it Omar, because that literally would take us back to an eye for an eye.
I do think you trivialised the impact to the girl though.
And vengeance may not be an ideal situation or a popular one, but it's part of human nature. If that little girl was your sister, would you be happy with the judges outcome or would you find yourself thinking of some way to exact revenge?
I can accept the kids under 18 who participated being treated in accordance with their age (like the kids from the Werribee assualt) but the adults who participated.................................... 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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sherrife 
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 17 Apr 2003
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| stui magpie wrote: | | I do think you trivialised the impact to the girl though. |
Yeah, I think you could be right about that... I do want to stress that the incident is disgusting, but being horrified doesn't necessarily translate (in my own mind) to wanting to punish the pricks who did it. And I do understand long term pain, and it's ongoing effect on daily life. But I also understand that people can build and grow from tragic events, and that writing someone, anyone, off as a result of their background or something that's happened to them is to sell them short.
| stui magpie wrote: | | And vengeance may not be an ideal situation or a popular one, but it's part of human nature. If that little girl was your sister, would you be happy with the judges outcome or would you find yourself thinking of some way to exact revenge? |
I don't know, but I think even were I to turn into some sort of renegade seeking my own personal brand of justice (cue the harley and a texan backdrop), that wouldn't make me right, it would make me a victim of my damaged emotional state.
I think when we punish others out of feelings of revenge, we brutalise ourselves at the same time. We cannot promote violence (jail is institutional violence) against other human beings and somehow remain aloof and peace-loving ourselves.
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I accept what you say about writing people off. People can and do fight back from tragic and traumatic events, but that journey shouldn't be understated.
I also understand your views on punishment, I just don't agree with them in entirety.
The best way to effect behavioural change is to apply consequences to an action (either positive or negative) which are certain and immediate. If you know if you do X you will get instant gratification, that is a positive reinforcer and is far stronger than an uncertain future dated potential negative consequence that may be delivered for the same action. In that aspect, the current judicial system doesn't go far enough IMO to provide deterrent to inappropriate behaviour.
Deprivation of liberty SHOULD be a punishment. Being in jail SHOULD be a punishment and the punishment should be equitable with the crime.
Rehabilitation is a must as ideally, you would want people incarcerated to NOT reoffend once they come out. Simply locking them up them doesn't achieve that. But there needs to be a negative consequence attached to innapropriate behaviour.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| What does she look like? |
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 17 Apr 2003
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| Tess wrote: | | Omar I was being over the top deliberately because these bastards need to be punished. The girl was just 10 years old, and these guys thought it was OK to take her like that. Imagine what she thinks of herself now, she had 9 guys &%%& her and the legal system just told her she wanted it so it's OK. |
But WHY do they need to be punished? What the hell does punishment DO exactly? (and for the last time, it does NOT deter.)
***EDIT***
I'm not saying don't respond negatively and seriously. We should definitely be making it clear to the perpetrators and society as a whole that what happened is not on... BUT we should have as our goal creating the best society we can, and act on the basis of that, not a desire for some sort of revenge.
_________________
I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs
Last edited by sherrife on Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Omar,
Let me give you a hypothetical.
Someone breaks into your house and rapes and kills your mother or sister, then leaves. The Police take lots of evidence but can't find the person.
Now, the person who committed this act, was in their late 20's and was messed up on a mix of drugs and alcohol at the time. After leaving the scene, the next morning the person wakes up filled with guilt and remorse. But not enough to turn themselves in. For the next 10 years, they work at being a better person. Give up booze and drugs, work with charities and children, give their time in a number of ways to try to make amends in their own mind. They get married and have kids of their own and are a first class partner and parent.
Then, after 10 years, a sequence of coincidental events mean the Police are able to link their DNA with the crime scene and solve the murder. They are arrested and charged.
They have effectively rehabilitated themself over a 10 year period, have not re-offended and are by all accounts a pillar of their community.
Should they go to Jail?
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 17 Apr 2003
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Tess:
I totally agree, but do you think that the only way to show that is by throwing these guys in jail?
Stui:
Tough... but I think that no, I wouldn't. Or at least, I hope I wouldn't. It would be selfish of me to ruin this guy's life and remove the positive impact his life has on his community to satisfy my own desire for vengeance. I think.
_________________
I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Mate, I admire your philosophy.
In direct answer to your earlier question/comment, of course punishment deters behaviour. It is a negative consequence.
Q.Why don't more people speed or drink alcohol when driving their car? A.They don't want to get punished. (fine, loss of licence)
Why fine people if they overstay their time at a parking metre? To deter people from doing it.
You've never checked your speed when driving, been careful about how much you drink or made sure not to park in a no standing zone because you didn't want to get a fine?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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member34258
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
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Our society is built on the premise of lawbreakers being punished.
You may not agree with all laws, I certainly don't, but until these laws are changed or repealed then society expects justice to be served.
I am outraged by the comments made by the person invested with the responsibility of enforcing these punishments.
Not only should the offenders face the full force of the law in this case but the judge should lose her job as soon as possible.
Without the enforcement of law, we have no society. |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| sherrife wrote: | | I think it is safe to say that they're probably not malicious people, probably just opportunistic chauvinistic pricks, and there are plenty of those around. I really think they (and 75% of males on this planet) need education rather than a slap on the wrist that is likely to encourage further criminal behaviour. |
???
I could see where you were coming from if it was a 14 or 15 year old girl, and perhaps you could describe it as little more than an opportunistic and chauvinistic act.
But 10? Do we even know if the girl was pubescent yet? This is practically pedophilia.
They need education, but in my opinion a short jail term would have been more educational than what these guys received.
I can't help but think of this scene from the Belgian film Le Fils (The Son), where the father of a murdered boy asks the killer (who is a teenage boy) if he feels any regret over his actions. He replies that of course he does, as he spent five years in jail because of it.
I think a big part of rehabilitation is accepting the negative consequences of your actions.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 17 Apr 2003
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Q.Why don't more people speed or drink alcohol when driving their car? A.They don't want to get punished. (fine, loss of licence) |
Well, yea ok, I'll accept that when it comes to the average person committing a minimal offence; the threat of punishment can be a deterrent (eg. massive speeding, parking fines, buying a train ticket).
However I disagree with the drink driving example. I think the overwhelming majority of society refuses to drink and drive because we are convinced that doing so is dangerous and stupid; we could die. Those that DO drink and drive do it in spite of the potential ramifications are clearly ignoring the (ultimate) negative consequence aren't they? And yet they do it. I think this shows that the reasons people follow laws are much more complex than a simple fear of punishment. We're not dogs!
It's (at least equally) about education, values, and social norms.
| stui magpie wrote: | | Why fine people if they overstay their time at a parking metre? To deter people from doing it. |
No, to collect taxes.  But seriously I accept your point; small things can be deterred by punishment. I stand by my claim that murderers, rapists, and paedophiles are not, and never will be, discouraged by the threat of severe punishments. There are reasons for their behaviour that go much deeper than the fear of getting caught can ever offset.
| stui magpie wrote: | | You've never checked your speed when driving, been careful about how much you drink or made sure not to park in a no standing zone because you didn't want to get a fine? |
I do the first two things because I am convinced they improve my chances of living! On the other hand, I regularly park illegally, regardless of the potential fine... More evidence for this position: the fact that most people keep going at 100km/h on the road-work sections of the Monash free way is evidence for the fact we follow most rules because we believe in the rationale behind the law, not out of fear of getting caught
And going back to an earlier point, I'm not saying that no punishment is necessary, but simply that traditional means such as jail result in very few good outcomes and plenty of bad ones.
_________________
I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| sherrife wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Q.Why don't more people speed or drink alcohol when driving their car? A.They don't want to get punished. (fine, loss of licence) |
However I disagree with the drink driving example. I think the overwhelming majority of society refuses to drink and drive because we are convinced that doing so is dangerous and stupid; we could die. |
When I've had a couple of drinks, and I am considering whether or not to drive home, I am far more concerned about the possibility of being pulled over by police than I am about crashing. That may say something about how naive I am, but there's a lot of naive people out there.
Punishment is a deterrent, and that is it's primary purpose. It also serves as protection for society in general (in the sense of someone being put in prison and thus unable to commit further crimes), rehabilitation of the offender, and in a less significant way, a kind of vengeance to appease the victim/s and reduce the desire for vigilante justice.
I don't know whether jail is an effective deterrent for pedophiles, rapists or murderers (not having personally known any of the above), but at the very least it protects the rest of society from falling victim to such people. If rehabilitation occurs as a result, that's a bonus.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Fair points Omar and good one David.
| Quote: | I stand by my claim that murderers, rapists, and paedophiles are not, and never will be, discouraged by the threat of severe punishments. There are reasons for their behaviour that go much deeper than the fear of getting caught can ever offset.
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Those that did obviously weren't deterred by the threat of punishment, for any number of different reasons. Some people just don't give a shit, others do a basic unconscious risk vs reward analysis and decide that they can accept the consequences IF caught because the percieved benefit they recieve is greater in their eyes.
I'm very confident in my ability to safely pilot a motor vehicle while well over the legal limit. The reason I don't do so is because I don't want to lose my licence. I'm not prepared to do the time, so I don't do the crime.
You will not break a culture with either education or consequences alone. ou need a mix. Educate people WHY their behaviour is wrong; encourage them to do the right thing, and punish those who don't.
Oh, and Member, I agree on the judge. Check out the comments attributed to the prosecuter will you please. That is equally as disgraceful IMO.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Jason 
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Location: Mackay
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| Tess wrote: | A drop of Acid down the eye of their Penis's or is that Peni?
The Blunt knife example. |
*Breaks out in a cold sweat* |
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Alec. J. Hidell
Joined: 12 May 2007
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| Tess wrote: | | sherrife wrote: | Tess:
I totally agree, but do you think that the only way to show that is by throwing these guys in jail?
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Oh no not at all.
A drop of Acid down the eye of their Penis's or is that Peni?
The Blunt knife example.
Shoving some conduit up the rectums, with barbed wired inside then pushing the barbed wire in a little way and removing the conduit leaving the barbed wire to rip into their flesh.
You right there are so many other ways ...... that would be so much more effective. |
Then what makes you any better than them?
Them and you are both cut from the same piece of cloth.
You have no concept of justice, revenge rules your thinking.
You say what they did is wrong, yet hypocritically think doing much worse is the solution.
Sad
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The one man in the world, who never believes he is mad, is the madman. |
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